Wooden stirrups and civilian breast collar measurements

[Jack]

I have just finished my Hope saddle and was lucky enough to take it on a trail ride in Texas, where my sore butt was a result of riding 20 miles a day, and not the saddle. As time wore on my butt stopped hurting which it would not have done if the saddle had been poor. Thanks for the reference from those who responded to my query about some one good to make my tree. I used Mr. Marcus. Great job!

As we are all trying to improve our impressions, I am looking for help on measurements in making correct stirrups and civilian breast collars. Measurements, pictures and leads are most welcomed. Any time from 1850's on would be fine.

Thanks,

Jack Mc Coy

[moarkcav]

Re: Wooden stirrups and civilian breast collar measurements

Jack:

Are you talking about stirrups or stirrup leathers? When making breast straps I have always used measurements from my horse as I ride an Arab and most gear is made for QH. Next to coat straps this is the simplest thing to make.

Also I would love to see a picture of the rig you made. As someone who makes a little tack on his own it is always nice to see what the rest of us amateurs are making.

We are looking to fill the mounted ranks for Marmaduke's Raid this September. Take a look at the site and let me know if you have any questions.

http://campjacksonboy.googlepages.com/home

Thanks,

Chris Talburt

[Capt. "Texas" Elliot]

Re: Wooden stirrups and civilian breast collar measurements

Hi Jack, sorry for the hijack. A pic of my 'Hope' saddle. I am still fine tuning it to suit the horse and myself. I got it from Arena Leather in the states (I am in Australia).

I would love to see some pics of your rig and hear more about your ride.

[ButtermilkRanger]

Re: Wooden stirrups and civilian breast collar measurements

Not to stir up a hornet's nest, but does anyone have anything definitive as to when the double-rigged "Sam Stagg" type rigged saddles first appeared on the American market? It was my understanding that they probably were first used in the late 1860s as an adaptation to the growing cattle market. On the other hand, both Texas and California already had a cattle market prior to the war, so it stands to reason that they may have made an appearance by the 1850s?

And what about the saddle boot depicted in this pic? Were they seen prior to the late '60s as well?

[moarkcav]

Re: Wooden stirrups and civilian breast collar measurements

Larry:

I know that it is not a scholarly search but a “google” on history of rifle scabbards turned up the following.

http://www.cochiseleather.com/western-gun-leather-history.html#Rifle_Cases,_Loops_and_Scabbards_

By the way are you planing on being at Marmaduke's Raid?

Thanks,

Chris Talburt

[Capt. "Texas" Elliot]

Re: Wooden stirrups and civilian breast collar measurements

Hi Larry, please be aware that the rifle bucket I am using is a modern bucket that I have had for a while and I am just using it until I have a period version made. I didnt post the pic to say "hey, look at my period gear". Heck, if you look real close you will see my mid 1990's Seiko wrist watch on my left wrist. :D

I am new to late 19thc re-enactment and am still working a lot of stuff out. I am mainly approching it from the point of view of looking better when doing mounted shooting.

I usually spend my time doing medieval re-enactment and jousting in particular, www.jousting.com.au.

Opps, forgot to sign off.

Cheers

Rod

[ButtermilkRanger]

Re: Wooden stirrups and civilian breast collar measurements

Larry:

I know that it is not a scholarly search but a “google” on history of rifle scabbards turned up the following.

http://www.cochiseleather.com/western-gun-leather-history.html#Rifle_Cases,_Loops_and_Scabbards_

By the way are you planing on being at Marmaduke's Raid?

Thanks,

Chris Talburt

Thanks, Chris. As of right now, I'm planning on being at Marmadukes with a couple of pards. But with diesel at $4 a gallon, who knows what the future holds? Thanks for the link.

[ButtermilkRanger]

Re: Wooden stirrups and civilian breast collar measurements

Hi Larry, please be aware that the rifle bucket I am using is a modern bucket that I have had for a while and I am just using it until I have a period version made. I didnt post the pic to say "hey, look at my period gear". Heck, if you look real close you will see my mid 1990's Seiko wrist watch on my left wrist. :D

I am new to late 19thc re-enactment and am still working a lot of stuff out. I am mainly approching it from the point of view of looking better when doing mounted shooting.

I usually spend my time doing medieval re-enactment and jousting in particular, www.jousting.com.au.

Opps, forgot to sign off.

Cheers

Rod

Rod,

I meant no offense and I wasn't posting as a critique of your kit. My questions were honest ones that popped into my mind when I saw your picture. I've very often legitimately wondered about the saddle boot. I've heard it said time and again that they simply didn't exist before the 1870s or the very late '60s at the earliest, but I saw something very similar that I'd call a saddle scabbard ID'd to JEB Stuart at the MOC back in the early '90s. I've never seen any photographical or documented evidence for usage during the CW period, but the scabbard belonging to Stuart sure makes me wonder if they were around, or if the MOC got something wrong.

As for the double rigged Sam Stagg saddle, that's a debate I've heard often over the years. Since Ken Knopp frequents the board, I was hoping he'd share his opinion on the advent of the double rigged saddle. Personally, I've never seen even a photograph of an ID'd CW era saddle with double rigging, but that doesn't mean they didn't exist. I did see a Time-Life photo of a skeleton tree double rigged Texas saddle once that was supposedly ID'd to the late '60s, but nothing before that. I don't propose to be an authority on antebellum saddlery so I'd like to hear an expert opinion. If the double rigged saddle is not PEC, then some of the "historic" saddlers out there might need to get the message.

I guess my real point in all of this kind of falls along the lines of the jaguar skin trouser debate. What we consider PEC for theater of operations or one area of the country may not be necessarily true for another. Maybe there were saddle boots carried by general officers in the ANV and maybe there were double rigged saddles being ridden all over Texas. I don't know. I used to think that stampede strings on hats simply did not exist on headgear prior to the late 1870s, either, until Scott McMahon (whom I consider an authority on 1830s-1840s Texian culture) turned me on to some period paintings and dags of Texans and Mexicans with stampede strings as early as the 1840s on the western frontier.

It just goes to show that this is a learning process and what we think we know isn't always the truth.