Flash boom thump?

[Thomas Alleman]

Re: Flash boom thump?

I have been to Grayling,MI live shoot and it is a frightful sight to see a 3 inch gun fire canister, it utterly churns the grounds up and the farther it goes the more pop up targets it hit. I saw them hit targets at 1000 yards and smooth bore hit barrels at 500. The sounds are one you will never forget. So when you see a gun go off, some will die. We never take hits like we should. Also if you get to go to a live shoot do it.

[3rdUSRedleg]

Re: Flash boom thump?

I have been to Grayling,MI live shoot and it is a frightful sight to see a 3 inch gun fire canister, it utterly churns the grounds up and the farther it goes the more pop up targets it hit. I saw them hit targets at 1000 yards and smooth bore hit barrels at 500. The sounds are one you will never forget. So when you see a gun go off, some will die. We never take hits like we should. Also if you get to go to a live shoot do it.

Sir;
That is one of the better most post I have seen on this website!!

With respect to your posting,

[marine05]

Re: Flash boom thump?

Mr. Hicks is correct,

MV for a Parrot 10 pounder is appoximately 1300 ft/sec, speed of sound as he stated is appoximately 1129 ft/sec or 4.7 seconds/mile. So at about 1 mile you would see the smoke/flash, then incoming burst, followed by the report. However depending on where you are along the GT line you may see the smoke/flash, then hear the report, noise of flight and impact in that order.

In addition barometric pressure affects sound as well, with fog causing sound to travel a bit faster, for if I remember correctly denser air cause sound to travel more quickly.

Parrot shells did make sounds going through the air and if I recall correctly Whitworth shells screamed.

With modern artillery I have experienced both outgoing and incoming artillery (outgoing good, incoming bad!!), at 22K meters you're not likely to hear a M198 howitzer's report unless you are at some point on the GT line. If I heard the round go overhead I knew I was not the target, if I heard impact without sound of flight, I was worried. Mortars you can hear the bloop as they fire plus round at is flies toward the target.

Good conversation and topic!!

S/F

DJM

[Duff]

Re: Flash boom thump?

I have also read in several first person accounts that Whitworth projectiles made a very distinct sound.

Also, one must remember that the friction in the air will slow the projectile down exponentially as it travels through the air. So, depending on the distance, the projectile may be going much slower than its muzzle velocity.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Flash boom thump?

Hallo!

Once Upon a Time, from having fired an original 3 Inch Ordnance Rifle for three years and a smoothbore for one in the N-SSA, I would add that...
Yes, being behind a projectile, to my ear (a tin one at that though), the various shapes do make an interesting sound moving through the air away from you.

Curt

[Marc]

Re: Flash boom thump?

Hallo!

Once Upon a Time, from having fired an original 3 Inch Ordnance Rifle for three years and a smoothbore for one in the N-SSA, I would add that...
Yes, being behind a projectile, to my ear (a tin one at that though), the various shapes do make an interesting sound moving through the air away from you.

Curt

I have fired live also 3' ordnance, 10lb Parrot and orginal Napolean and Curt is correct they all have a distinct sound sound depending on the projectile being fired.

Nothing sweeter to hear than a Napolean live fired, muzzle dipping and that wonderful ring tone.

I believe from reading the diaries etc that the Whitworth cannon had a very distinct sound.

Reading in the wars after, all artillery had their own sound ie; German 88 etc

[Mbond057]

Re: Flash boom thump?

Just to add a little perspective to the topic from the Arizona desert.

I own a 12 Pdr Bronze (Mordecai Barrel) Mountain Howitzer with 4.625” bore with a 2.75” tapered chamber. Firing only 8oz blank rounds sounds like thunder before you get the “Pinging” that carries across the field.

I have live fired canister from the MH using 1 pound of 1Fg powder. At 120 yards it devastated the targets. Even the 2 X 4 supports on the target were shredded like tooth picks. It chewed up the desert dirt for 10 yards on each side of the target. Because I was using a homemade desert shooting range, there was Saguaro Cactus’s near by and I couldn’t increase the distance without damaging the cactus so I really haven’t experienced shooting at further distances.

I can assure you that you weren’t having a pleasant day if you happened to be on the business end of a canister delivery.

[artillerybuff]

Re: Flash boom thump?

I have fired live also 3' ordnance, 10lb Parrot and orginal Napolean and Curt is correct they all have a distinct sound sound depending on the projectile being fired.

Nothing sweeter to hear than a Napolean live fired, muzzle dipping and that wonderful ring tone.

I believe from reading the diaries etc that the Whitworth cannon had a very distinct sound.

Reading in the wars after, all artillery had their own sound ie; German 88 etc

Hello all,

We live fire our artillery pieces with full service loads which has included two 10 Pdr. Parrotts (1 lb. powder w/ 10 lb. bolts), a 12 Pdr. Field Howitzer 1 lb. powder w/ 12 lb. shot puts), two 6 Pdr.'s (1 lb. powder w/ 6 lb. shot puts), two 24 Pdr. Coehorn Mortars (8 ounces powder w/ 18 lb. shells) and a 12 Pdr. Mountain Howitzer (8 ounces powder w/ 12 lb. shot puts and Canister).
{note, we never exceed the table of fire and all of our pieces are either soild steel, steel lined, or properly cast and machined bronze; one lb. in a MH as previously posted is double what the piece was designed for and we won't do it, not even with blanks!}.

In years past we have allowed people to be approximately 400 yards down range in a target bunker while we fired at targets at 600 yards so they could hear the rounds going directly overhead. It is the most awesome experince to say the least! We hope to be able to do this again at our next live fire in January 2009 here in the Imperial Valley.

My question to you Marc, is what load and ammo do you use in your Napoleon? I know the table of fire calls for a whopping 2.5 lbs., but since we are only shooting 600 yards I thought we might be able to cut that load by half? We have a new piece being made to use in January, and it will be easily capable of handling full spec loads, but I was wondering what you guys used and how accurate it was etc. Usually we just go directly from the original Table of Fire, but would appreciate your expertise and sharing of your practical experience before we start expending expensive powder & ammo.


Many thanks~

Anthony Variz

PS: Regarding the original question -- While muzzle velocity does exceed the speed of sound with most CW field artillery, it has been my experience that this velocity is not maintained for very long as the rounds slow down. We have timed our rounds from time of fire to impact at range and they appear to be WELL below 1,000 FPS down range, and this is with full service loads. My best guess is the sound and impact will be very close depending on the range.

[Marc]

Re: Flash boom thump?

Hello all,


My question to you Marc, is what load and ammo do you use in your Napoleon? I know the table of fire calls for a whopping 2.5 lbs., but since we are only shooting 600 yards I thought we might be able to cut that load by half? We have a new piece being made to use in January, and it will be easily capable of handling full spec loads, but I was wondering what you guys used and how accurate it was etc. Usually we just go directly from the original Table of Fire, but would appreciate your expertise and sharing of your practical experience before we start expending expensive powder & ammo.


Many thanks~

Anthony Variz

.

We fired the Napolean with 2lbs of powder at targets 1200 yards away. We were not very accurate with the Napolean, but the rifled guns hit the target every time. This was on a farm and also at Ft Indiantown Gap a few years ago. Hope this helps.

Marc

[Brian Wiswell]

Re: Flash boom thump?

I was in a trench when CW artillary was using live (round ball) rounds and firing over our heads. i didn't SEE the muzzle blast because I was below grade level (way below)! I heard the muzzle blast and then heard the round wizz over head as it went to its target. Gave me a good idea what the boys were hearing back in the Civil War.

This was all done at an old military firing range during one of our Live Fire events here in California. Pretty cool.

Brian Wiswell

[artillerybuff]

Re: Flash boom thump?

I was in a trench when CW artillary was using live (round ball) rounds and firing over our heads. i didn't SEE the muzzle blast because I was below grade level (way below)! I heard the muzzle blast and then heard the round wizz over head as it went to its target. Gave me a good idea what the boys were hearing back in the Civil War.

This was all done at an old military firing range during one of our Live Fire events here in California. Pretty cool.

Brian Wiswell

That would indicate the rounds were traveling slower than the speed of sound in that particular situation, which is what I have observed as well.

Anthony Variz

[Abrams]

Re: Flash boom thump?

I found an excerpt from 'General Lees Army' by Joseph T Glatthaar that gives an account that might be of aid to this discussion. On pages 320-321, the following passage gives some insight to this question from a Louisiana Lieutenant:

A Louisiana Lieutenant recieved his baptism by fire at Yorktown, and artillery loomed largest in his immediate memory as well. "I think the most unpleasant remembrances of the Strife are these same schrapnell shot," he declared to his mother. "They get to us some seconds before the report of the powder that sent them so that the first thing we know of them [is] a shrill whistle unlike any thing you or I ever heard, before, then, the sharp bell-like crack of the bomb--the whistle of the little balls like bumble bees--then the report of the Gun." It all came so close together, though, that "it takes a very fine ear to distinguish which is first."

So it sounds like it all comes very close together, but first the whistle of the shell coming, then the explosion of the shell, the wizzing of shrapnell, and finally the report of the cannon firing.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Flash boom thump?

Hallo!

As an aside, here are some muzzle velocities of Civil War ordnance (I assume the numbers are at the muzzle, as velocity decreases quickly over distance):

From "Characteristics of Principal Civil War Smoothbore and Rifled Field-Artillery Weapons" form Harold Peterson's NOTES ON ORDNANCE OF THE AMERICAN CIVIL WAR:

Models of 1841-1844

6 pd gun.............1,439 fps
12 pd gun...........1,486
12 pd howitzer.....1,054
24 pd howitzer.... 1,060
32 pd howitzer.... 1,100
12 pd mountain howitzer.... 650

Model of 1857

12 pd Napoleon....1, 440

Rifles

10 pd Parrott.......1,230
3 Inch Ordnance...1,215
20 pd Parrott.......1,250
12 pd James........1,000
24 pd James........1,000
6 pd Wiard..........1,300
10 pd Wiard.........1,230
12 pd Whitworth...1,600
12 pd Blakely........1,250
3 Inch Armstrong...1,350
6 pd Whitworth......1,550
12 pd Whitworth....1,500
3 Inch Armstrong...1,300

Reminded of the "The bullet that gets you is the one you hear after you are shot."

Curt

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Flash boom thump?

Hallo!

As an aside, here are some muzzle velocities of Civil War ordnance (I assume the numbers are at the muzzle, as velocity decreases quickly over distance):

From "Characteristics of Principal Civil War Smoothbore and Rifled Field-Artillery Weapons" form Harold Peterson's NOTES ON ORDNANCE OF THE AMERICAN CIVIL WAR:

Models of 1841-1844

6 pd gun.............1,439 fps
12 pd gun...........1,486
12 pd howitzer.....1,054
24 pd howitzer.... 1,060
32 pd howitzer.... 1,100
12 pd mountain howitzer.... 650

Model of 1857

12 pd Napoleon....1, 440

Rifles

10 pd Parrott.......1,230
3 Inch Ordnance...1,215
20 pd Parrott.......1,250
12 pd James........1,000
24 pd James........1,000
6 pd Wiard..........1,300
10 pd Wiard.........1,230
12 pd Whitworth...1,600
12 pd Blakely........1,250
3 Inch Armstrong...1,350
6 pd Whitworth......1,550
12 pd Whitworth....1,500
3 Inch Armstrong...1,300

(The speed of sound is 1129 fps in dry air at 68 Degrees)

Reminded of the "The bullet that gets you is the one you hear after you are shot."

Curt

[John Rouse]

Re: Flash boom thump?

I thought the excerpted paragraph below, from Wiley's The Life of Billy Yank (pg. 78) is relevant to the discussion.

The sound of artillery missiles, to which soldiers gave such nicknames as "camp kettles," "cook stoves," "lamp posts," "iron foundries," "tubs" and bootlegs," was most frequently referred to as a scream. After Antietam a surgeon wrote: "You can have no idea of the horrible noise the shells make-when one passes over your head with its scream as if 50 Locomotive Whistles were blowing at once, no man can help dodging."

Humbly Sentient,

John Rouse