Double ramming the rifled gun

[faabala]

Re: Double ramming the rifled gun

Gentllemen- Having perused several period manuals, I have not found reference to a period practice of 'double ramming' on a rifled piece. For my own and others elucidation could you please cite period 'chapter and verse' for the practice.

thank you
I remain etc.

Most rifled pieces used a separate powder charge and projectile. So they would seem to be loaded separately. There is very little in the manuals about rifled guns. Frank types quicker than I.

[Coatsy]

Re: Double ramming the rifled gun

I've attached the NPS drill for folks to look through.

[Silas]

Re: Double ramming the rifled gun

Awesome. Now I understand why I didn't find anything about double ramming in the manuals I skimmed. Next step for me is to spend some time reviewing Hunt, Berry and French plus comparing them to NPS. Thanks.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Double ramming the rifled gun

Hallo!

And it may be stating the obvious, but the "implication" for reenacting/living history is that some, many, most rifle gun crews on such as Parrots and 3 Inch Ordnance rifles "delete" a ramming because they are charging a powder charge only and not a fixed powder projectile round.

Curt
Former 3 Inch Ordnance Rifle man Mess

[10TnVI]

Re: Double ramming the rifled gun

So Again- I have found no procedure for 'double ramming' in any manual I have perused. In the tradition of this board, I again ask for those who claim this technique to have been used in period to supply their proof in the form of period citations or accounts of this practice in field guns. I admit to its usage in large caliber/ siege gun/coast defense type pieces but have seen no evidence of it's usage in field artillery. I will even accept documents published after the war that are indicative of adoption of wartime practice.

As an aside-even with unfixed ammunition, I see no reason why the charge and projectile could not be loaded and rammed together.

[Brian Baird]

Re: Double ramming the rifled gun

Having live fired a 10 pdr, you dont want your powder charged torn up while loading. Regardless of period citations, that is the correct way to load a rifled cannon.
As others have stated, the manuals were written before rifled cannons became popular ....how many manuals are out there that were changed for carried breech loaders weapons for infantry or cavalry?

Brian Baird

[LWhite64]

Re: Double ramming the rifled gun

Ok, as an NPS Historic Weapons supervisor, we do it at Chickamauga, Kennesaw Mtn, and Stones River, so theres nothing official about not allowing it.

[cmccurley33]

Re: Double ramming the rifled gun

"My gun was the last to get into position, coming up on the left. I was assigned the position of No. 2, Jim Ford, No. 1. The minie-balls were now flying fast by our heads, through the clover and everywhere. A charge of powder was handed me, which I put into the muzzle of the gun. In a rifled gun this should have been rammed home first, but No. 1 said, "Put in your shell, and let one ram do! Hear those minies?" I heard them and adopted the suggestion; the consequence was, The charge stopped half way down, and there it stuck, and the gun was thereby rendered unavailable."

-Edward Moore, "Story of a Canoneer Under Stonewall Jackson", at the first battle of Winchester

[Savannah Republican Blues]

Re: Double ramming the rifled gun

"My gun was the last to get into position, coming up on the left. I was assigned the position of No. 2, Jim Ford, No. 1. The minie-balls were now flying fast by our heads, through the clover and everywhere. A charge of powder was handed me, which I put into the muzzle of the gun. In a rifled gun this should have been rammed home first, but No. 1 said, "Put in your shell, and let one ram do! Hear those minies?" I heard them and adopted the suggestion; the consequence was, The charge stopped half way down, and there it stuck, and the gun was thereby rendered unavailable."

-Edward Moore, "Story of a Canoneer Under Stonewall Jackson", at the first battle of Winchester

Excellent account Cliff!

Regards,
Savannah Republican Blues

[cmccurley33]

Re: Double ramming the rifled gun

My favorite memoir from the war. A lot of people haven't read that one, but it is PACKED with gold

[10TnVI]

Re: Double ramming the rifled gun

Thanks for the cite Cliff-any more out there?

[faabala]

Re: Double ramming the rifled gun

I found a good reference.... Robert's Handbook of Artillery 1863.

http://books.google.com/books?id=s2kBAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Roberts+handbook+of+artillery.&hl=en&sa=X&ei=qPr7UpmKIcuqkQeA6IC4Dw&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Roberts%20handbook%20of%20artillery.&f=false

PAGE 167.

[Pennvolunteer]

Re: Double ramming the rifled gun

Ha Dave! You beat me this time! I was just signing on and getting ready to post that quote from Roberts 1863 Handbook of Artillery and you already posted it!!!! I also checked Patten's artillery drill, but all rerun of HBF for smoothbore. But for secondary references as well, Dean Thomas' "Cannons" and "The Arms and Equipment of the Civil War" by Coggins both expound the double ramming of separate loading ammo as well. Thomas is a little short in his bibliography, but Coggins used Gibbon, HBF, US and CS ordnance manuals and Stark's CS artillery manual as references.
We also have John C. Tidball's memoirs here in the archival collection, "Remarks upon the Organization, Command, and Employment of the Field Artillery During the War, based upon experiences of the Civil War, 1861-5". I have some sections in my files, but am going to try to get a full copy for reference.

[10TnVI]

Re: Double ramming the rifled gun

Thank you gentlemen for the info

[Ferguson's Artillery]

Re: Double ramming the rifled gun

I included the Edward A. Moore recollection in my Letter to the Editor of the Artilleryman Magazine, Vol. 34, No.4, Fall 2013. If you are not a subscriber to this fine periodical, you should be. It is the only one devoted to the hobbyist artilleryman. My other reference to "double ramming" in the Letter is from The Handbook of Artillery for the Service of the United States, Army and Militia, 5th ed, p. 167: In 1863 Joseph Roberts referred to the "Parrott Rifle Gun" stating that "the cartridge is first inserted and rammed home, and then the projectile..." My letter to the editor of The Artilleryman details the "controversy" over fixed ammunition for rifled pieces, which was raised in an earlier article by Robert H. Gregory. The upshot is that the overwhelming majority of ammunition issued to rifled pieces was unfixed, thus requiring two motions of ramming, one for the cartridge, and one for the shell.

For the record, Ferguson's (SC) Artillery uses drill from George Patten's 1864 manual to serve our Parrott. Like other contemporary manuals, it was not updated to reflect the practice of double ramming in rifled pieces.