Artillery Cartridge Bag material?

[sedlakchristopher]

Gents -

1. I am looking for any information on the actual material Federal artillery cartridge bags for fixed field ammunition were made of.

I know the Barry, Hunt, French manual states a "woolen" material and the Ordnance manual specifies a few specific types of matierial, "merino" (sp?) being one. BUT, has anyone viewed originals? What were they ACTUALLY made of? What material are they close to that we can acquire today?

I currently am using a thin jean cloth, but understand it is incorrect because of the cotton content.
The limber display at Gettysburg NMP downstairs just looks rediculous. Any thoughts on that? Looks like a fuzzy wool blanket was used to make the bags...?

2. Is there any research that states that the bags were treated with a nitrate (potassium nitrate or saltpeter) to aid in combustion? Or was the whole idea to use wool so as not to burn up?

3. What type of cord was used for attaching bag to sabot? Was it a thin arsenal type string such as used for musket cartridges or was it a thicker hemp cord? Was the bag tied, folded over, tied again? or tied once and foled over?
I purchased projectiles w/ sabots from Paulson Ordnance and some sabots have two rings for tying and some only one... confused... If I remember correctly they weren't matching the sabot diagrams in the manuals...
I'm specifically looking for fixed rounds for a Napoleon.

I haven't been able to find the answers in the manuals and have had no luck finding originals to inspect.

I am working on perfecting our limber display, with the whole right side being a correct "load" of ammunition.

Thanks in advance.

Chris Sedlak
Iron City Guards
(Battery G - 1st PA Light Arty)

[Forquer]

Re: Artillery Cartridge Bag material?

Gents -

1. I am looking for any information on the actual material Federal artillery cartridge bags for fixed field ammunition were made of.

I know the Barry, Hunt, French manual states a "woolen" material and the Ordnance manual specifies a few specific types of matierial, "merino" (sp?) being one. BUT, has anyone viewed originals? What were they ACTUALLY made of? What material are they close to that we can acquire today?

I currently am using a thin jean cloth, but understand it is incorrect because of the cotton content.
The limber display at Gettysburg NMP downstairs just looks rediculous. Any thoughts on that? Looks like a fuzzy wool blanket was used to make the bags...?

2. Is there any research that states that the bags were treated with a nitrate (potassium nitrate or saltpeter) to aid in combustion? Or was the whole idea to use wool so as not to burn up?

3. What type of cord was used for attaching bag to sabot? Was it a thin arsenal type string such as used for musket cartridges or was it a thicker hemp cord? Was the bag tied, folded over, tied again? or tied once and foled over?
I purchased projectiles w/ sabots from Paulson Ordnance and some sabots have two rings for tying and some only one... confused... If I remember correctly they weren't matching the sabot diagrams in the manuals...
I'm specifically looking for fixed rounds for a Napoleon.

I haven't been able to find the answers in the manuals and have had no luck finding originals to inspect.

I am working on perfecting our limber display, with the whole right side being a correct "load" of ammunition.

Thanks in advance.

Chris Sedlak
Iron City Guards
(Battery G - 1st PA Light Arty)

Chris -

The original bags that I've seen consisted of both wool flannel and linen.

Page 277 in the 1861 U.S. Army Ordnance Manual and page 264 in the 1863 C.S.A. Ordnance Manual (pretty much verbatim ripoff) outlines the procedure for fixing ammunition:

"These bags, filled and gauged, are placed upright in a tub or box, and carried by the gaugers into the finishing room, where the men are placed in pairs, sitting astride on a bench, facing each other. One of them opens a bag and levels the powder, the other inserts the sabot of a strapped shot square upon the powder and draws up the end of the bag over the shot. The first man passes about four feet of twine through the pierced stick and makes two turns and a double hitch with the end at the top of the sabot; he makes a knot in the end of the twine, inserts it into the slit in the other choking-stick, and tightens the double hitch by rolling the twine on the sticks and bearing upon the sabot; he then takes out the end of the twine from the slit, ties it in a hard knot, which he tightens with the assistance of the choking-stick, and cuts the twine off near the knot. The second man turns down the mouth of the bag over the sabot, and the first makes a similar tie in the groove; he makes another tie below the sabot, and the tie being lodged between it and the powder, to prevent the latter from sifting between the bag and the sabot."

Also, according to the manual, canister for field guns is fixed the same way, except the first tie is made on upper groove of the sabot, with the cylinder being tied in the lower groove.

According to what I've found in the manuals, the only treatment that the woolen bags may receive is during packing, and that is with a treatment of camphor and pepper to help ward off moths.

You may try to contact the Ordnance Museum at Aberdeen to see if they have any surviving examples to help enlighten you.

Hope to see you and the lads out in the field this year. I think we'll have a mess at Chatham in June.

[sedlakchristopher]

Re: Artillery Cartridge Bag material?

Thanks Greg.
I have read that quote before, I had it right beside me when I was doing my ties, but it just didn't seem to jive.
I shall revisit, perhaps with the help of an interpreter :)

See you this year sometime!
Chris Sedlak

[Forquer]

Re: Artillery Cartridge Bag material?

Chris -

Some further information..................

On page 264 of the 1861 U.S. Army Ordnance Manual............

"Merino or Serge, for cartridge bags should be made entirely of wool; it should be strong, closely woven, twilled, and not frayed; the width should be even in the same piece; that 3/4 yard wide is convenient and the most common. The colors are to be preferred in the following order:,- green, gray, yellow, blue, red, white; reject black, which is almost always burnt and weak."

"Twine should be strong, smooth, and well twisted,- o.o3 inch thick for bundling cartridges, &c., and for sewing fireballs; from 0.06 inch to 0.08 inch for fixing ammunitioon, &c."

[James Brenner]

Re: Artillery Cartridge Bag material?

On a related note, this passage is excerpted from, James Barnett, Reminiscences of the Cleveland Light Artillery, Cleveland, Cleveland Printing Company: 1908; reprint Higginson Book Company, Salem, MA, discussing the CLA's field preparations in June 1861 at Camp Putnam, Marietta, OH:

" Early efforts were made to secure a supply of better ammunition, as that hastily picked up at Columbus was of no value whatsoever. There were no shells or cannister, and the solid shot were not only wrong in size, but they were not round and could not have been thrown with any degree of precision. Colonel Barnett telegraphed to Cincinnati and secured a quantity of shot that was promptly forwarded. He engaged the use of a shop in Marietta where a lathe was put to work turning sabots, and a laboratory was fitted up where cartidges were made and the sabots were properly strapped to the shot. Nearly all this work was performed by members of the regiment...The ladies of Marietta offered their services ... A bountiful supply of red flannel was procured and immediately a hundred fair hands were at work, plying scissors and needle, in making cartidge bags. The ladies made a "bee" of it, and in a wonderfully short time, they had finished enough to last for months. The fine rifle powder that was pitched on the train in Columbus was exchanged for cannon powder ... This homemade ammunition was largely used in target practice, which was deemed highly essential for future usefulness."

[sedlakchristopher]

Re: Artillery Cartridge Bag material?

Thanks Greg.
But what is Merino and Serge? Do we know?
And i'm to assume the twine was a hemp product? That's the first time I saw the diameter measurements.. and the color allowances! that helps.
Thanks James for the Cleveland Light reference.

Chris Sedlak

[Minieball577]

Re: Artillery Cartridge Bag material?

Merino is the most common type of Sheep in the world. Sheep make wool. I think its safe to say that merino is a wool cloth obtained from such sheep.

Google reveals:

Serge is a type of twill fabric that has diagonal lines or ridges on both sides, made with a two-up, two-down weave. The worsted variety is used in making military uniforms, suits, great and trench coats. Its counterpart, silk serge, is used for linings. French serge is a softer, finer variety. The word is also used for a high quality woolen woven.
Denim is a cotton fabric with a similar weave; its name is believed to be derived from "serge de Nîmes" after Nîmes in France.

[Canton Zouave]

Re: Artillery Cartridge Bag material?

Chris,

Sent you an email with the definitions and sources of wool that we can use to make our powder bags from.

[sedlakchristopher]

Re: Artillery Cartridge Bag material?

Mr. Hubbard,
Thank you for your reply.
I should have clarified myself when I asked about merino. I did Google it also and got some direction, however, not being a tailor, it was all Greek to me.
The definition didn't do me any good, as I really needed to see samples to understand the finer qualities of what we were deciphering.
I do appreciate your help.
Mr. Morris has been amazingly kind enough to furnish samples free of charge and help us in getting the proper wools for our bags.

THANKS to all who helped in this endeavor.

Your obedient servant,
Chris Sedlak
Iron City Guards, Bty G - 1st PA Light

[MDec]

Re: Artillery Cartridge Bag material?

Chris,
Could you please post the results of your conversation with Mr. Morris. I too would like to make some authentic artillery cartridges, out of the proper material, for my display rounds.

Thanks,
Michael Dec
Rutledge's/McClung's Tennessee Battery

[sedlakchristopher]

Re: Artillery Cartridge Bag material?

Michael,

Sent you a PM

Chris Sedlak
Iron City Guards, 1st PA - Bty G

[Dennis W. Duerbeck]

Re: Artillery Cartridge Bag material?

Can anyone share their sources ,if known, for the correct wool material for cartridge bags. I've not contacted Todd Morris about this as he may be a bit busy with the new family addition. I do have artillery manuals so the dimensions, construction, and affixing are at hand, but if anyone has any additional info I'll gladly take it. Also, it is great to hear that authenticity is desired by A/C members. That they wish to portray military and civillian persons and NOT "play" soldier or civillian. Thanks to all! Dennis W. Duerbeck