Correct horses or no horses?

[arthurlee]

Attempting to build an authentic horse drawn artillery battery is difficult at best. Many in my group, working toward authenticity, are looking into purchasing horses to pull our two 6 pounders (we have finally stopped the watches and mirrored sunglasses). Our guns are as authentic as one can get without using authentic guns. they were produced to represent two specific guns purchased for the war. I have been told that that our 1841 napoleon's were in common use for the confederacy. We have little information to go on as to horse breeds and the size of the teams. Any photos, ideas or references would be most welcome. I hope this is posted in the correct place, if not, forgive this recruit.

Artie Maxwell
Cpl.
Battery k
1st Texas
(Shepherd Texas)

[tmattimore]

Re: Correct horses or no horses?

Does any one in your unit know how to ride postillion? or drive single or pairs. The first consideration for a team is temperment the second is skill level. Do the horses know how to drive? The third is health are they old standardbreds off the track who are stiffeled, foundered, knockneed or otherwise chronicly ill.? the fourth is do the horses have courage or will they spook at white tents ,Flags, marching bands, gunshots. loud noises little kids and crowds. There are others but the very last thing to consider is their breed.Size is a factor the manual called for 900lb and up horses for artillery it should not be hard to find horses in the 1100 lb range.

[Fauxban]

Battery Horses

Tom's advice is quite sound. I concur in every particular. That being said, while I'm far from from an equine expert, I've worked with Kent Oestenstad's mounted battery for some years now. Virtually all of our teams are recued/retired racehorses, and used to harness. I've learnt that our horses are only afraid of things that move, and those that don't move!! It seems that there's always some new variety of horse goblin appearing on the field, ones that we never expected. My all time time favourite, besides the yaller dawg runnin' underneath the blue tarpaulin covering the hay, were the the baby strollers & carriages in the rain at Franklin!!!

Please don't make the mistake one group here in South Carolina did. They managed to acquire some ex-Arlington National Cemetary horses. Beautiful, magnificent, docile creatures well used to harness, and commotion, they were HUGE!! And white, and not inclined to celerity, even when prodded. These draft horses had to have oversize tack custom built for them, just as the Army had had to do and simply didn't fit well in the CW mounted artillery role. Big as they were, they simply dwarfed the unit's IIIin Ordnance Rifle and its limber, making the detachemnt in harness appear as if they were drawing a scale gun!!! It was quite comical to look upon, failing as it did to present a PEC/NUG impression. Ya hadda wonder, "Is that gun too small, or are them horses too BIG?"

Everytime I watched them I was reminded of the Confederates who "bought" large numbers of Pennsylvania draft horses on the Gettysburg Campaign, only to have them die in droves very shortly after their "enlistment"... Big and powerful they may have been, but far from sturdy on short fodder while lacking the stamina to pull for days on end in bad weather over awful roads.

[sedlakchristopher]

Re: Correct horses or no horses?

Artie,

Two good sources to consult, although US manuals, are John Gibbon's Artillerist Manual and also the 1861 or 64 Field Artillery Tactics manual by Gen's Hunt, Barry and French.
They both spell out to some extent what type of horses should be used, Gibbon's more-so than the 61 Manual.
Gibbon's has a whole section devoted to the horse selection.

Although portions of both of these manuals are online at the US Regulars online school website, they don't have the sections on the horse posted yet.

http://www.usregulars.com/nrhome.htm

PS - Tried to private message you, but yours is turned off. If you can't find these books in print, Gibbon's may be difficult, let me know and I'll set you up with copies of what you need.
email me at sedlakchristopher@yahoo.com

Good Luck,
In the process ourselves...

Chris Sedlak

[marine05]

Re: Correct horses or no horses?

I second Chris' reply. Gibbon's you can find online and download for free. If you print it out...well lets say there's a few hundred pages, but worth the effort. Some bookstores sell it, you might try the Butternut and Blue bookstore at http://www.butternutandblue.com/index.html Jim McLean has a very good selection, nope close relation that we are aware of, we do know each other through a Lincoln Symposium we belong to along with Ed Bearss, Tom Desjardin and a few others.

/R

DJM

[arthurlee]

Re: Correct horses or no horses?

Great Advice! We were looking at a few large draft horses, Belgians in fact, and am now glad I asked the question. I have three quater horses in the 1100 to 1200 ib range, but like all enthusiastic "beginners" we are getting overly excited. We will do a little more research on harness horses and take our time. I'd rather not make some of the mistakes listed above.

Thanks to all,
Artie Maxwell
Cpl, 1st Texas, Battery K
Shepherd Texas

[Bob 125th NYSVI]

Re: Correct horses or no horses?

As a teamster I can tell you that there are a number fo things you need to look for.

Temperament, temperament, temperament. You want quiet middle aged horses for a number of reason. One, young horses right off the track (3-5) aren't finished growing yet also they are trained to go FAST with very light loads. Both are incompatiable with what you are doing with your guns unless you are portraying a horse battery. Older horses have learned that rest and standing in the traces is a good thing. They have also developed most of their non-health related bad habits by the time they are 7-8. Young horses can develop new ones at the drop of a hat.

Draft horses are COMPLETELY inappropriate because in the last century or so they have been bred up in size. A 'large' Percheron in 1900 would have been about 1400 pounds, today they'd haul you away for not feeding any percheron that size. Furthermore even though the south did appropriate draft horses during their two northern invasions they found them unsuited for artillery work and a strain on the logistic systems for the amount of fodder they consumed.

Regular breeds that will work are Morgans and standardbreds. Both breeds are good for harness work. Morgans being a little shorter are actually better because they get better 'draft' (the amount of power an animal can bring to bear on a load is directly related to the angle of the pole flatter is better) on whatever they are pulling.

There should be no more than an inch or two difference in height between the team members (off and near horses). Not all horses have to be the same height but each team should be. This allows them to equally share the load without too much wear on their bodies from the harness. A good teamster knows how to adjust harness properly but based on the question I'm assuming you don't have an experienced teamster in the unit.

Get TRAINED horses and see them driven and have your driver drive them. Show up at the seller's place unexpectedly to drive them a second time if you are interested. There are all kinds of things a seller can do to a horse to make them seem acceptable if he knows you are coming. If the seller claims the horse can do something or is something (dead broke being a common term) make them prove it right then and there or discount what they say.

See if you can bring a powder charge with you to set off around the horse. A spooked horse towing a cannon is NOT something you want carreening around a reenactment.

Ask to talk to BOTh the seller's vet and farrier to see if they feel that the horse is capable of doing what you want it to do. Have an independent vet (NOT the seller's vet) examine the horse for general health. You may want an independent farrier to look at the animal too.

Finally you will need at LEAST half as much animal in weight as the total weight of your limber and cannon loaded for bear with riders on it. That is if the total weight of everything they are pulling is 3000 pounds you need at least 1500 pounds of horse in reasonable condition.

Finally if you do get a team of horses board them somewhere where they are together and OUTSIDE all the time. They will be more easier to handle this way and calmer. I have a team I can leave in the field for 6 months and when I take them out they act as if they were worked yesterday. Horses that live together in a natural enviorment will be healthier, more willing and quieter to work with. The worst thing man ever did to a horse was invent the stall. And DON'T grain them unless they are working consistantly, it can be like feeding surgar to a 6 year old kid. They are designed to live on grass, as long as it is well balanced and they can get enough of it they'll be fine.

As to my bonifides. 16 years driving draft teams (up to 4 in hand) for educational, work, competition and pleasure purposes. I have owned horses for 24 years and currently own 39 with 8 of them being driving animals with different levels of experience.

[Russell Huffman]

Re: Correct horses or no horses?

A bit of advice i would give is to go out with a horse artillery unit and ride ,it is a different world than anything in re-enacting .it is very dangerous if not done with experience .and is still a adrenaline rush that cant be matched.the team i work with is all standardbred ex-racers they seem to have the best temperment to me.



Russell Huffman
1st Kentucky cavalry & Horse Artillery

[hoppes9]

Re: Correct horses or no horses?

Make sure your crew is well trained and experienced with the horses. I see too many people show up at events and jump up on whatever horse the guy with the big trailer provides them. These people are damn fools and are an accident waiting to happen.

Cohesive crews don't become that way overnight. The same is true for people and horses - they need to work together for a while before they figure each other out.

[Citizen_Soldier]

Re: Correct horses or no horses?

Greetings,
I've worked in the past as a professional teamster and I think Bob is offering some pretty sound advice.

Most of my research on historic draft breeds is focused on Iowa, but what I've found in primary documents is that prior to the late 1860's there is no record of draft horses in the state. What folks were using during this time period were "horses of all work" and from all accounts these were just mixed blood animals that weighed around 900-1200 pounds.

When draft horses finally do make the scene, at first they are generally just stallions that are being bred to the local grade mares...resulting in more mixed bloodlines but these had a little more size to them.

Belgians don't make it to his part of the country until closer to the turn of the century.

I hope this helps,
Darrek Orwig

[Ringgold]

Re: Correct horses or no horses?

Howdy All!

I am posting this response for Ken Morris (10nycav) who is having some forum trouble and cannot post it himself. I must say that I find Ken's, as well as the other posts I have read here to be very much "spot-on" regarding horseflesh of the Rebellion era. This thread was truly desperately needed!

Here's Ken:

"The advice given on choosing horses is great. I will just add a little on breeding. In my previous discussions on horse breeds I focused on saddle horses for the most part. Artillery horses are more a type than a breed. Civil War era artillery manuals are pretty explicit on the type of horse desired: a height range of 15.1 to 16 hands, “Active, pony-built horses” with broad chests, ample bone and large feet. (Large, but not the flat platter shaped feet of the draft horse either.) They also desired a short, strong back, and round barrel with well sprung ribs. They most emphatically did not want long-legged, weedy, narrow chested types. On the other hand they did not want a draft horse either; an artillery horse needed to be able to pull quickly when needed, and big draft horses were simply too slow. Manuals specify horses in the 1100-1200 pound range, and I would expect that the high end for a wheel horse would be about 1300 pounds.

The term “pony built” occurs fairly often in Civil War era horse literature. It seems to refer to a full sized horse that had pony –type conformational traits: built rather low to the ground, with short strong cannon bones, short back, round barrel, substantial hindquarters, strong neck (inclined to be on the short side.) Such horses tend to be easy keepers and good weight carriers too; the 1st Maine regimental refers to troopers preferring this type of horse. The smaller animal of this type makes a good mounted infantry horse.

What horses in the US at the time of the Civil War had these traits? The closest match I could find is something called the “Vermont Draft” by Henry William Herbert, a noted horse expert and sporting writer of the era. He used this term merely to describe a type; it was NOT an established breed. It was simply a type of horse used on stagecoaches and express wagons not only in Vermont but also Maine, New Hampshire, and Massachusetts. The description of this horse fits that of the ideal artillery horse to a T. This type of horse was usually dark colored (bay or brown), often some dappling on the hindquarters, straight mane and tail, no feathering on the legs. I expect that good coaching horses were exported to other areas of the US (as indeed many other breeds were) so they were probably not unique to the Northeast, though certainly most common there. Herbert could only guess as to the origins of these horses since no breeding records were kept. He suspected the influence of the English dray-horse and the Cleveland Bay (which in those days, was a shorter, stouter animal than it is today.) Some stagecoach horses were said to be part Canadian.

Breeding for this type of horse—a fast working draft horse—is now a rarity in the US and most coaching horses are bred to be more showy. Usually for example, they are a good deal longer in the legs and have more knee action than the old time coacher. Europe used to have a lot of old fashioned coach horses as well, in fact the German Coach Horse of 100 years ago is also very close to the ideal artillery type. Not surprisingly, a lot of the base stock for the German Coach was bred for use by the German heavy cavalry. European coaching stock contributed greatly to the development of the modern Warmbloods, but again these are longer legged, more refined horses.

If a modern-day artillerist was to try to find horses that meet the old archetype, he would probably do well to look at crossbred horses with some draft blood, but not too much. Some Canadian horses do fit the artillery model quite well. Some old type Morgans as well, although these are harder and harder to find. They were becoming rare even 100 years ago and were called “old type” even then. Some people use Standardbreds, but because these horses are bred for pure speed on the track, they tend to be longer legged and more slab sided than the artillery ideal. Being bred for racing, their temperament sometimes tend to be rather hot, and many have a very bad canter. The true artillery horse needs to have three good gaits. It’s too bad that America no longer has a good stock of cob-type horses. These are very handy, good all rounders, and generally good tempered, but the American mania for taller, more refined horses has made them a thing of the past.

Ken Morris"

Thanks Ken! As usual, that was most-excellent!

Artie,
The only other thing that I would care to mention is that you might not want to refer to your M1841 Six-pounders as Napoleons. The gun that was given that moniker was the M1857 Light 12-pounder Field Gun Howitzer, also more commonly referred to in the service as simply the Light 12-pounder. I have read accounts by veterans after the War that occassionaly refer to 6-pounders as Napoleons, but that confusion appears to be more of a post-war happening.

[arthurlee]

Re: Correct horses or no horses?

This is why I joined the AC. I do have friends with cross breed horses that may fit the bill, two or three generations removed from draft animals. Also the information on my incorrect identification of our artillery pieces was an eye opener. Goes to show that just because one hears something over and over, does not make it fact.

Thanks for all the help. No where can one get so much information in one place.

One quick "rumor" about my group you may find amusing. When inducted for service the "Polk County Flying Artillery" was converted to infantry upon arrival in Richmond and later was made part of a sharpshooters battalion, but still kept that flowery name. Still looking for documents to back up the "name claim".

Artie Maxwell
Shepherd Texas

[Jeffrey Cohen]

Re: Correct horses or no horses?

We have Percherons. A person joined my unit that has them and uses them for carriage work. Should I have said no? I don't think so. What would you rather pull your gun on the field an F-150 or some Percherons.
It should be noted that the horses of the 1860's don't exist anymore, all the horses have gotten bigger, so if you really want to split hairs, nothing works.
I've taken some heat about my horses, but you don't look a gift horse in the mouth{Pardon the pun}.
Regards,
Jeffrey Cohen

[W. K. Osman]

Re: Correct horses or no horses?

Boys, I'm not particularly interested in joining the discussion, but know you might enjoy reading the original army specifications for artillery (and cavalry) horses. These are dated July 1863. I found them in Record Group 92, Entry 225, Consolidated Correspondence Files (Horses), at the National Archives many years ago and I do not believe they have ever been published. Finally a chance to share some of these goodies with folks who may find them of interest!
Stephen Osman

[Jeffrey Cohen]

Re: Correct horses or no horses?

Excellent!!!!
I doff my cap to you fine sir.
Regards,
Jeffrey Cohen