Numbering of Guns in a Battery

[sedlakchristopher]

A search of this forum and Google, etc... did not result in any matches.

I know that it is tradition at modern events to term pieces gun #1, gun #2, etc... and I don't argue that this may have been the case originally, however,
the US Hunt, Barry, French Instruction for Field Artillery terms pieces by section and then left or right piece.

I have also seen somewhere in the past where the numbering was on a 4 gun system with the guns not being numbered ascendingly so that if 2 guns were added they were on the outside flanks, much like an infantry battle front of companies were sometimes not in order due to seniority of its Captain....

THE QUESTION: what primary resource or manual tells us that they numbered the guns rather than calling them by section and left or right gun?

PLEASE no modern "we've always done it that way" or such and such unit says .... I'm looking for period sources or manual citations.


Your obedient servant,
Chris Sedlak

[Fauxban]

What a GREAT question!!

Now I need to get busy, & find a definitive answer...

In the mean time however, consider that "the army", anyone's, anywhere, everywhere, then, now, & forever must be organized & defined. Since the section is not the smallest unit of artillery, being comprised of two gun platoons, we must differentiate between the section's sub-units, numbering them would seem logical.
I've read a coupla memoirs where cannoneers define themselves as being Number 2 on gun Number 3, or whatever position/piece it was. Further I've read of "gun Number 3 being detached to..." This, at least in my mind, points towards the numbering of guns being a period practice. I'll need to dig those citations out as well.

In keeping with the 4/6 gun battery organization recall that TO&E specified Four 6 pdr guns/Two 12 pdr field howitzers or Four 12 pdr guns/Two 24 pdr field howitzers. Numbering logically I would assign guns # 1 & # 2 to the first section, Guns #3 & #4 to the second, & both howitzers to the third, numbered #5 & #6.
In action splitting the third section to provide flank defence is prudent, & controllable by creating two half-batteries under the senior lieutenant present at each.
On the march, presuming the battery isn't split into sections & assigned to specific infantry commands, maneuver by both section AND piece is described by F B & H, with drill to deploy in any order required.

I'll do my best to unearth those references over the holiday, though I believe manual citations are gonna be hard to come by.

[Forquer]

Re: Numbering of Guns in a Battery

Chris -

I've been through HBF, Gibbons, Gilham's, and an 1858 manual on ordnance and gunnery today and haven't been able to find anything indicating that guns were numbered off from the right to the left, or otherwise.

On one hand it seems a rather unwieldy system to tell off a piece by section and then its placement within a section if you're trying to direct it. On the other hand if one or more pieces are disabled during the heat and confusion of battle you don't have to take time to re-number the whole battery.

Just muddies the waters even more, and the only ones we can ask about it just ain't talking.

See you and the lads next weekend.

[RJSamp]

Re: Numbering of Guns in a Battery

Charles Reed (the artist) sketched out the guns in the 9th MA LFA for their positions in the gap between the Stony Hill and the Peach Orchard at Gettysburg 1863. He number them (facing South, right flank #1 gun to the West, #6 left flank gun to the East) as 1 2 3 4 5 6. They had to move the right section to the other flank to get a better line of site and avoid some trees..... the guns ended up
3 4 5 6 1 2. They moved by section, swung into position by piece and were numbered.

It isn't a manual, but it was sketched out soon after the battle (some of his work was done ON the battlefield) by a MOH recipient......their guns were numbered.

I know that some batteries had NAMES for their pieces as well as numbers.....

[sedlakchristopher]

Re: Numbering of Guns in a Battery

To All so far,
Yes, I will not dispute the fact that they may and DID number the guns, I just had not found anything in the manuals as of this point.
This is what I wanted, to see that period references did or did not exist to soldiers referring to "I was with gun #2" or the like...

I too, as previously stated, remember of reading here and there of a gun being numbered, but at the time didn't feel it prudent to remember where I was reading it at/who was telling me.

Some good information gents.

We'll clear this up by the time its all said and done!

Thanks,
Chris Sedlak

[ktfrench]

Re: Numbering of Guns in a Battery

Here are two passages from the book "From the Rapidan to Richmond and the Spotsylvania Campaign - A Sketch in Personal Narrative of the Scenes a Soldier Saw" by Private William Dame of the Richmond Howitzers:

The Captain’s steady voice rang out! As an echo to it, Dan McCarty sung out “Fourth detachment commence firing, fire!” I gave the lanyard a jerk.


My gun, “Number Four” stood exactly at the point where the line declined to the front of the ridge, and so was exactly in the infantry line. The “3d gun” was some ten yards to our left, on the ridge seven or eight yards back of the line, and could fire over it to the front.

Regards,
Kevin French

[rgilbert]

Re: Numbering of Guns in a Battery

Here is another reference to referring to guns by number. It is an extract from a letter written by David Nichol of Knapp's Battery:

Near Rectortown, Va
June 8, 1862

Dear Sister,

....."At this time, No. 3 Gun, being behind, run into No. 4 Gun, throwing the cannoneers off the limber chest".

D. Nichol

[Ringgold]

Re: Numbering of Guns in a Battery

Just muddies the waters even more, and the only ones we can ask about it just ain't talking.

Howdy Greg!

Actually, they are "talking". You just have to know where to "listen".

In "Durell's Battery in the Civil War" one can hear them "state" quite clearly on page #28:

"... A battery of light artillery was divided into six gun detachments, consisting of fifteen men in each ; nine cannoneers and six drivers ; each under the command of a sergeant, who was called the chief of the piece. He had two corporals, of whom one was the gunner and the other the chief of caisson, in charge of the ammunition belonging to his piece. The sergeant was not only responsible for the condition of his men and the care of his twelve horses, harness, etc., but also for the proficiency of the men in the service of the piece. Two detachments formed a section, each section being under the command of a lieutenant. There were three sections, denominated the right, centre and left sections. The first and second detachments composed the right section; the fifth and sixth, the centre, and the third and fourth, the left. The first lieutenants had command the right and left sections, the senior second lieutenant the centre, and the junior second lieutenant had charge of the line of caissons and ammunition. . . ."

Further reading and research shows that, in a six gun battery, the guns would have been numbered from left to right thusly (if you were standing behind the gun line): 4 - 3- 6 - 5 - 2 - 1. Gun #1 always being the right-flank piece and Gun #4 always being the left-flank piece. Why? you may ask! Well. it's quite simple. In peacetime, all batteries are 4 gun batteries, therefore, a battery would be numbered from left to right like this (again when viewed from behind) 4 - 3 - 2 - 1. You see, the centre section, commanded by the senior second lieutenant is the section that has been added to the mix. In 1864, when the Army of the Potomac reduced all batteries to 4 gun batteries, there was little confusion or even concern because the only difference to be made was that the centre section had to be eliminated and everything went back to the old standard.

I've also noted by comparing which officer of the Ringgold Battery was commanding which section that the senior first lieutenant always commanded the right section and the junior first lieutenant always commanded the left. Rightfully so, as the right is usually the "place of honor". The reason for having the senior second lieutenant commanding the centre section is simple - he would be right beside the captain, since that was the usual place for "the old man" to command the battery from. If the 2nd Lt had any questions, he had only to turn to the captain and ask him.

Now, there is also something else that has surfaced during my research on Captain Durell's Ringgold Battery, P.V. - it's how the NCO's were numbered! The first detachment was run by the first duty sergeant with the first corporal as the gunner and the seventh corporal as the chief of caisson. The second detachment was run by the second duty sergeant with the second corporal as the gunner and the eighth corporal as the chief of caisson. This pattern holds true for the rest of the detachments as well; the number of the chief of the piece and gunner matching the number of his detachment, and the chief of caisson being the number of his detachment +6 (or +4 if it is only a four gun battery). This shows the confusion one finds today when researching a soldier who was a first duty sergeant rather than a first sergeant (a staff position, usuall referred to as Orderly Sergeant in the artillery). Quite often, a gentleman would be a first duty sergeant and later be promoted to first sergeant. Were the duty seargeants and corporals called by their "numbers"? (EI: Eleventh Corporal) I seriously doubt it. As a matter of fact, in all of my readings on the Ringgold Battery, I have never found a mention of any of the men as second this or seventh that. I have only occassionally read of the Orderly Sergeant being referred to as "First Sergeant". The only mentions of the men's numbers comes when the promtions (or demotions) are mentioned in the unit history and noted on the backs of their CdV's by their fellow batterymen as seen in my collection.

So there you go Chris! I hope this helped to answer your question.

[woodsda]

Re: Numbering of Guns in a Battery

Chris,

I did some research and came up with this web site:

https://www.civilwarartillery.com/books/GIBBON.PDF

It is the manual that was taught at west point prior to the war. It is dated in 1859. What I read was that the caissons were numbered 1-4 in peace, and 1-7 in war which in my mind would correspond to the number of the gun. In any case it is 605 pages of artillery from West point.

Don Woods

[Ringgold]

Just to keep you thinking . . .

Alright brother Redlegs,

With what we have learned so far, who can tell me where guns #7 and #8 would be placed in an 8 gun battery? Yes, there were a few 8 gun batteries during the Rebellion. There were even a few that were larger than that! Why? I have NO idea! They had to be a logistical nightmare and a cast-iron b1tch to manoeuvre from point A to B, and then deploy.

We need more artillery discussion around here!

By the way, I will give extra credit to the lad who can tell me the easiest way to move a light battery that is larger than 6 guns.

[RJSamp]

Re: Just to keep you thinking . . .

Alright brother Redlegs,

With what we have learned so far, who can tell me where guns #7 and #8 would be placed in an 8 gun battery? Yes, there were a few 8 gun batteries during the Rebellion. There were even a few that were larger than that! Why? I have NO idea! They had to be a logistical nightmare and a cast-iron b1tch to manoeuvre from point A to B, and then deploy.

We need more artillery discussion around here!

By the way, I will give extra credit to the lad who can tell me the easiest way to move a light battery that is larger than 6 guns.

1. 4-3 8-7 6-5 2-1 or how the 9th MASS Deployed at the Peach Orchard July 2nd 1863: 6 - 5 - 4 - 3- 2 - 1 (so 8 - 7 on the left flank for your 8 gun battery) and then moved the 1st section to the left flank as it's LOF was obscured by some trees, thus: 2 - 1- 6 - 5 - 4 - 3 (or 2-1- 8-7- 6-5- 4-3 for your 8 gun battery). Only 7 guns? Pretend for a second that say, gun #2 was hit by a solid shot..... now manuever your 5 gun battery accordingly....same thing for a 7 gun battery. You know they moved the sections independently of each other on occassion.....that's how SMITH deployed his rifles in the Devil's Den area on July 2nd 1863. ...4 up and two well back on Houck's Ridge firing down the Valley of Death.

2. 'logistical nightmare " ??? You move cast-iron pieces One at a Time, section by section.....you don't move them all as one piece piled up on top of each other.....you put each piece on their own 6 up team.....just like a 4 gun or 6 gun battery had each piece limbered up on it's own.....it takes no more of a logistical nightmare effort to move 1 gun or 3 sections than it does to move 8 guns and 4 sections.....or 12 guns in 6 sections (that's two batteries!).you move them each piece and caisson on their own. Read the stuff that REED wrote and illustrated about in their move from the Artillery Reserve (that was Battalion's of 5 batteries with 6 guns each) to the Peach Orchard on July 2nd. Pfanz 2nd Day has a decent account of this, as does Gettysburg Magazine (mid 90's publication), and Coddington (but not in the detail that Reed goes into).

3. Take a deep breath.....and walk through this very slowly. before you had (at full TOE) 150 men and 110 horses....now you have roughly 180 men and 135 horses.... you order up feed, rations, horse shoes, drivers saddles, pay, issued gear and uniforms based on the roll call counts and horses in use.

Still only 2 buglers, mounted, for an 8 gun battery.

:wink_smil Doesn't that feel better?

[Ringgold]

Re: Numbering of Guns in a Battery

Anyone else?

Hint: You won't find any direct quotations in any of the manuals, you have to do some serious reading. The Man Behind the Guns, A Diary of Battle, Artillery Hell, Durell's Battery in the Civil War, History of the Hampton Battery in the Civil War, The Flushing Battery, and The Cannoneer would be a few of the places worth perusing.

Good Luck!

[RJSamp]

Re: Numbering of Guns in a Battery

So what's the answer Mark?!!