Improving Artillery Impressions

[artillerybuff]

Re: Improving Artillery Impressions

[QUOTE
Please post some pics of your bronze barrels and copper limber tops and lets get this thread loaded with some accurate representations. Do you have a website for your unit and guns ?


Christopher, unfortunately my website is off line until my son returns from his deployment (I do not know how to do it myself), but I do have many pictures I can send to your personal email address if you like (do not know how to post them here, please forgive my computer ignorance). I personally own two fully rifled 10 Pdr. Parrotts, two Limbers, one Caisson, two Mountain Howitzers, two 24 Pdr. Coehorn Mortars (all pieces full scale with correct sized bores), and two 20 foot trailers to haul it all. Sold my 12 Pdr. Field Howitzer last year to help make room (hated doing that but the wife was ready to kill me!). Since our unit members are so spread out, I have to perform all of the maintenance by myself, and it is very hard to keep up with it all let me tell you. I have also previously owned two 6 Pdr's and an Ordnance Rifle.
PM me if you like and I'll send you more pictures than you'll know what to do with.

Anthony A. Variz

[Light 6 Pdr]

Re: Improving Artillery Impressions

Just for fun, let's look at the cost of a battery in today's prices. 1st an early war battery:

1. (4) 6 Pdr Gun tubes $18000 $72000 Bronze
2. (2) 12 Pdr Field Howitzer tubes $18000 $36000 Bronze
3. (6) #1 Carriages $8500 $51000
4. (12) Field Limbers (-boxes) $6500 $78000
5. (6) Caissons (-boxes) $7800 $46800
6. Battery Wagon $20000 $20000
7. Forge $19000 $19000
8. Limbers for 6,7 (2) $6500 $13000
9. implements X 6 $1000 $1000
10. Limber chests 14 limber, 12 caisson (26) $2800 $72800
11. Harness, 6 Per vehicle that is 6 pieces, 6 ciassons, 2 battery wagon and forge, that is 84 horses X a rough $1500 per horse $126000
12. Riding tack 1 Chief of piece, (6) Cpt (1) Lts (4) 1Sgt (1) (12 ) x say $1000 $12000

All this comes to $552,600 hmmmmm

Now, how about a later war battery of 6 Ordnance Rifles

1. (6) Rifled 3" Ordnance Rifle Tubes $7000 $42000 Rifled
So subtract $66000 from the above total and you have $486600. Still not very cheap.

Of course all of this is not counting horses or a basic load of ammunition.........96 horses @ $1500 ea would tack on $144000

6 Pdr Ammo is $13.75 powder charge +/- (1.25lbs) x 200 per gun x 4 $11000
6 Pdr Shot @ $10 each x 200 per gun, 4 guns $8000
12 Pdr Field howitzer is 13.75 per charge x 39 per box, x 4 per Howitzer $4290
12 Pdr Shot is $15 each from TRO $4680
12 Pdr Shells are say $40 ea $12480


A Battery of Field Artillery was and is a very expensive, very impressive array of equipment. In case you are wondering these prices are from Steen Cannons and Historical Ordnance Works.

As per other discussion:

1. Artillery invalid corps: You are totally correct, the artillery seems to be the home of the sick, lame and lazy all too often. Part of the reason for this is the dollars involved. Not too many 25 Year olds can afford the equipment (just a small piece of the list above) or the truck and trailer needed to transport said items around. This tends to make the average age of artilleryman a little older to say the least. I have been trying to get younger guys in our unit with little success. We have started horse drawn artillery which has its own list of problems. Now you have a branch that attracts older guys, with an activity that they are not able to do. The younger hard charging guys are drawn to infantry. Also, the level of work required is tremendious, maintining horses, harness etc is a lot of work and seems to put some people off too. This is even though I do 90% of it off the field.
I remember at 140th 1st Manassas I was with another battery. We were to take our Ordnance Rifle out on the field which was about 500 Yds away. We were supposed to get vehicle support which never materialized so we did it the olf fasioned way, the 7 of us rolled the 3000 lbs of ordnance and limber out on the field. We had not been there 15 minutes when some idiot came up and told us how he was going to do artillery when he was broken down and lazy like we were. The heat index was 105 or so that day, 1 guy died of heat stroke.
(also how many ordnance rifles were at the original battle ??? 0)

2. Horse drawn insurance: The National Rifle Association offers insurance for shooting or reenacting clubs. This is supplied through Lockton Risk services I think. Our policy is $1,000,000 and covers members and non members of the organization it is $600 per year. We had a broken shoulder at a practice last year and they paid without grumbling. They paid $5000 which is the max per medical issue. They even cover horse drawn activities etc.

3. Bronze tubes and limber chests were polished. The ordnance manual does not mention anything about painting them. Gibbon does not either. Mordechai doesn't mention it either. I often say to anyone that asserts they were allowed to tarnish, you weren't in the Army were you? I guess you never spent any time polishing copper pipes or painting rocks. My former Father in law was in AA Artillery stateside during the Korean war. He often said they cleaned their 90mm gun every day whether they fired it or not. From my time in the Army the greatest fear was to look "ate up" when your guns are not polished and equipment is dirty, you look ate up. I have read a reference to Dahlgren boat howitzer tubes were not to be polished in production. This implies the practice is not the norm. I have been unable to find it, but will keep looking.

Take care,
Steve Cameron
Burrough's Battery

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: Improving Artillery Impressions

Without casting stones at anyone or any group, I have noticed a fair amount of less than authentic portrayals of Confederate artillery. (I'm not saying this is just a Confederate issue, but that is all I have been observing and researching)

Sir-
Excellent comment. Artillery is, I feel, totally under-represented at authentic events. This is probably due to cost, need for horses (or at least a good man-harness), and lack of easy mobility during tacticals.

Living Histories, which tend to be stationary in nature mostly, are excluded from the above comment.

But... if there was a way to do it (I'm sure there is and has been) then I'd be all for doing an Artillery impression. Crewing a fortification in the middle of a tactical field at an authentic event would be a wonderfully unique experience.

Isn't there going to be grey artillery at Marmaduke's Raid this year? Too bad I cannot fly more than 2 times this year to events- for me that is pushing it.

Thanks- Johnny Lloyd

[Vicksburg Dave]

Re: Improving Artillery Impressions

While the discussion of horseflesh and tack is all well and good. Realistically speaking, just getting units to work on the basics is a daunting tasks. Folks need to start throwing away paint roller sponge rammers, eliminate the goofy contortions during drill, and burn every red kepi in sight. Likewise, artillery crews, seem more prone to having an entourage-wives, girlfriends, children, dogs. Many artillery impressions I have seen look more like a Civil War themed family camping trip. But then again, I am preaching to the choir here.

[hta1970]

Re: Improving Artillery Impressions

Well, it seems we can all agree artillery is expensive and to be 100% authentic takes alot more than most can bring to bear in terms of resources.

That being said, I think there is room for a more authentic impression given what we all accept as the basics for artillery without breaking the bank:

(1) A period correct artillery piece (this would be a tube and carriage which is correct for the for the time and theater of war, i.e. provide information on the types of tubes present at given battles which are reenacted so anyone looking to buy a new gun can see what will be most useful for the theater (a napoleon makes a fine tube for the ANV throughout the war but a 6pdr has a limited usefulness) (also if it wasn't used at the battle, i.e. mountain howitzers and mortars, leave it at home for the lawn ornament, VFW salute, 4th of july fireworks or living history)

(2) correct limber and impliments are needed for each artillery peice on the field

(3) a better standard about what are the correct uniforms worn by artillery during the war just as has been done by infantry (early, mid, late war) and reduce the red tide....also to incude the wear of jackets on the field, haversacks, canteens, bedrolls and knapsacks as would have been done by an active battery in a battle..

(4) better information published on what a battery actually did carry to the field and used for camp (no camp chairs, wall tents, oil lanterns (where would Confederates have gotten the oil for them?), etc....)( if you want a chair find a fortification to do a living history as heavy artillery)

(5) a consensus developed among authentic artillery reenactors as to what is the correct drill to be used for the peice and that authentic drill to be used by all artillery units so one cannoneer can serve and piece anywhere eliminating reenactorisms which are not valid and accepted safety modifications. ( to incluuse sighting, moving the piece, etc...)

the infantry has lead the way in research and publication and training of their members. it is time that artillery make the same effort not only to improve ourselves, but to help others improve by providing them the compiled research (face it most reenactors won't do origninal research and analysis from primary sources, but they are much more likely to read good research made available to them...

Just some thoughts....

[artillerybuff]

Re: Improving Artillery Impressions

Good discussion gentelmen, and way to break it down Steve. I wasn't far off when I rough estimated a half a million dollars for one Battery was I?

Yes, any hope of a FULL true Artillery portrayal is all but impossible, however, as mentioned by many here, there is much we can do to improve without breaking the bank. This is one of the reasons I began a new US Artillery Unit in January 2007 in the ACWS, besides the fact that in our orgainzation CS Cannons outnumbered US Cannons 4 to 1. Somebody had to step up to help balance out the impression and realism, I just hope my four Confederate GGG Grandfathers understand that it is in their honor that I reenact the best that I can, even if it is in blue clothes now.

Be well~

Anthony A. Variz

[GASharpshooter]

Re: Improving Artillery Impressions

I just hope my four Confederate GGG Grandfathers understand that it is in their honor that I reenact the best that I can, even if it is in blue clothes now.

Don't worry about that. I'm sure they're happy to watch you, and really glad you aren't half starving and sick from rancid pork and course corn meal.

Ah, the famous Red Kepi. I was never so mortified to learn that I shouldn't wear a red kepi as a gunner for Union. No one said anything until my third event!

The interweb is your friend, do the research. Remember, friends don't let friends wear red kepis!!

[ajroscoe]

Re: Improving Artillery Impressions

Since everyone is talking about the costs of a full battery, I was wondering how common it would have been to see the full battery together anyways. I understand the guns and their limbers would be together, but the caissons and their limbers as well as the forge and battery wagon would have been some distance to the rear in many cases, wouldn't they? When reading Col. Wainwright's diary entries for the fight at Gettysburg, he said that all his battery's save one (Stewart's B, 4th US) had left their caissons and wagons on Cemetery Hill when moving towards the fighting on Seminary and McPherson's Ridges. So, if we're talking about an accurate battlefield impression, wouldn't those items be away from the guns anyways, cutting down the costs of an accurate impression? Don't get me wrong, I understand that even given that, it would still be big bucks for six guns, limbers, limber chests, horses, and horse gear, but that would still mitigate the costs, wouldn't it?

[1stMaine]

Re: Improving Artillery Impressions

Ancrew,

There are always exception, but the Caissons need to be within supporting distance of the battery, because they carry 2/3rds of the ammunition. The battery wagon and forge could be further behind, but they would also need to be able to get up in a reasonable amount of time to repair any damage to the guns once they are withdrawn, or are not further needed.

The biggest problem with artillery is the logistics of it. Anyone can be taught to operate the guns themselves, but it takes a great deal of planning to account for the care and feeding of the animals, including drawing rations in advance so as not to have to worry about running out on the march, keeping tabs on ammunition expenditure, where the reserve ammunition trains are located and how best to get there from where you are, keeping tabs on the material condition of the battery's equipment and how and when to do maintenance, the care and feeding of the men, etc.

Add to that that the commander of the battery has to not only know how to ploy and deploy his battery for best effect, but also needs a good eye for the lay of the land so as to determine the best way for all his guns to get from where they are to where they are needed, and back again if needs be. He needs to be able to quickly asses the condition of the ground. Is it suitable for jorses, or might his battery become disabled or bogged down and caught in a bad spot?

Bit I digress. The caissons need to be fairly close by in order to feed the battery, and then also know where the trains are in order to replenish their chests. Lots of decisions to be made, usually under fire and with not much time to make them in. :)

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: Improving Artillery Impressions

Don't worry about that. I'm sure they're happy to watch you, and really glad you aren't half starving and sick from rancid pork and course corn meal.

Ah, the famous Red Kepi. I was never so mortified to learn that I shouldn't wear a red kepi as a gunner for Union. No one said anything until my third event!

The interweb is your friend, do the research. Remember, friends don't let friends wear red kepis!!

Gents-

Sorry soapbox... something really hit a chord with me personally... don't mean to take-away from the Artillery Discussion

Coming from the point-of-view of a real war vet, I would have absolutely NO problem if 100+ years from now, or even tomorrow, someone wanted to reenact the Iraq War. Just make sure you do it properly/correctly/realistically and in the memory of those that were fought, wounded, and died to make America great.

No one should ever make a mockery of the great tragedy of our war dead. I try to remember that when I reenact the AmCiv- I wouldn't want it done to MY war that I'm part of now.

The only ones to be able to TRULY call themselves "hardcores" are those that fought the war themselves, I feel. Guess, I'm a "hardcore Iraq War reenactor" based upon that assertion... that's why I sometimes joke that way- a way to laugh at the strange things that happen to you in combat. LOL ;)

But remember, they had fun too. They had laughs and fellowship as much, if not more sometimes, that only can be had with long times spent together facing death every day in some shape or form. We laughed in Iraq with one another because to not do so would mean going insane- so did the men that fought the Civil War because human nature doesn't change. They played practical jokes, told jokes, played games, wrestled and drank with one-another just as much as soldiers of today do. It helps you keep your sanity in a world that looks like it has lost its own sanity.

I feel "the ancestors" would take pride in the fact that we try to relive, as best as we know we can do so, their moments that defined their lives.

War changes you in big ways and little ways- sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse.

I don't feel being in a "Civil War circus" farbonzo-fest, no matter how noble the intentions, does anyone any good on studying what the real war was like or who really fought it and lived it as horrifying reality. You know, I might be offended if those Iraq War reenactors 100+ years from now aren't even willing to try to experience what I actually went through. But they certainly do have good intentions...

...perhaps it is a grey area there on how I feel. ;)


But... You're right, our American ancestors are probably looking down from heaven right now and happy America is strong, free, and at peace within itself. I know they must be happy we are keeping a true part of our American heritage alive for others to get interested-in and study its lessons presented.

I KNOW they are also saying... "You guys are crazy to do this for fun."

Huzzah. Ha!

If I'm lucky, then I will shake their hands one day and tell them how much I admire their sacrifice.

:wink_smil

I remain-
Johnny Lloyd
Captain, US Army
Iraq War- Jan 2006- Mar 2007

PS- Back to the thread discussion: In EOG-Confederacy, there is a picture of the Hart's Battery kepi and it's red. Possible re-enactorism against Confederate Red Kepis??? Hmmm... clarification?

[BumpusTN]

Re: Improving Artillery Impressions

Possible re-enactorism against Confederate Red Kepis??? :

Johnny,

Thank you for your service.

I think the "reenactorism" is more against the old "Spencer Firearms" type red kepi. Yeah, I had one in the old days. I thinks my kids play with it now.

Scott Bumpus

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: Improving Artillery Impressions

Johnny,

Thank you for your service.

Scott Bumpus

Have to digress... sorry

Not a problem... I was happy I fought in my generations war. I did it not for thanks, but to know I helped in some small way. I'm sure there were similar individual motivations in the War Between the States too.

Others have had more heroism than I. I think every vet feels that way.

I said the above comment because I feel, even I, sometimes forget to remember that men actually died horrid deaths fighting to make our country one again...

... but with that, they also lived the life of a soldier as well- which has changed little in centuries. That includes the laughs and fellowship along with the horrors of war.

While we cannot readily reenact actual killing (you wouldn't want to, trust me, I know) ... To not do justice to the life of a soldier, and not just death of the soldier, is really missing the war's impact as a whole on the men who fought it.

After all, isn't that what we study so carefully to reproduce?

:wink_smil

Thanks- Johnny Lloyd

[hta1970]

Re: Improving Artillery Impressions

Ok, lets get back on track on how we can improve artillery.....

I have a little breakdown of ANV artillery at Gettysburg.

98 Napoleons 40% of ANV Artillery
64 3in Ordnance Rifles 27% " " "
39 10pdr Parrotts 16% " " "
21 12 pdr Howitzers 9% " " "
12 20pdr Parrotts 5% " " "
5 24pdr Howitzers 2% " " "
2 Whitworths 1% " " "
214 Guns Total

228 Caissons (just short of 1 per gun)
8 Battery Wagons (roughly 1 per every 2 battalions)
32 Forges (roughly 1 per every 2 batteries)

It should be remembered that ANV Artillery had recently reorganized into 4gun batteries with a battalion staff, with each battalion assigned to a division and each Corps having 2 battalions of Reserve Artillery.

Just a snapshot showing what was in the field for the ANV in July '63.

Note the complete lack of 6pdr guns at this point in time and also that the Napoleon makes up almost half the field pieces in the ANV.

[1stMaine]

Re: Improving Artillery Impressions

Harry,

Do you have any stats for the ANV Cavalry Corps? I have a breakdown of gun types & numbers by battalion and, in some cases, battery, for the 3 Corps & the Artillery Reserve, but nothing listed for the cavalry. It had been my understanding that those 6lb guns, or at least some of them, were assigned to the Cavalry's batteries, but I may be mistaken there.

Respects,

[GASharpshooter]

Re: Improving Artillery Impressions

Captain Lloyd that was a great post!

Now, as far as the red kepi, I was a Union artillerist at the time, and it was gently pointed out to me, with a reference that I can't remember, but 'ol Dudley the first shirt pretty much knew the score on uniform items, that Union artillerists did not wear red kepis.

Now, Confederate, otoh, you could have a solid red kepi or a gray one with red branch trim. Although it seems like the sutlers only sell the red ones with the dark blue trim on them, which I think goes with red trousers in some Union infantry regiments. Someone tune me up again (it keeps happening...) if I have it wrong ;)