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Improving Artillery Impressions

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  • #91
    Re: Improving Artillery Impressions

    Here are a few facts about the mountain howitzer in the US Civil war....


    1. US Government Purchases: 444 of them. 219 from Alger, 225 from Ames.

    2. This compares to:

    854 1841 6Pdr Guns
    251 12 Pdr field howitzers
    1157 Napoleons
    228 2.9"/10 Pdr Parrotts
    279 3" Parrotts
    1040 +/- 3" Ordnance Rifles
    296 20 Pdr Parrotts

    3. the last Mtn Howitzer was bought 31 Mar 1863. The last 6 Pdr Gun was bought 31 Jan 1862, last Field howitzer sep 1862, last Napoleon Aug 1863, this was about the time the Federal Government stopped buying field guns, as they apparently had enough of them! There were apparently a handfull of Napoleons bought in 1864, but the records are incomplete and only a couple dozen from what I can see.

    4. The Mtn Howitzer and 3" Ordnance Rifles were the only guns on this list that the US Gov bought more of after the war.

    5. From experience firing Mountain Howitzers with service charges and service ammunition I can state that the gun is accurate enough for field service to at least 600 Yds. It would not fair well in counter battery fire, but it was not designed for counter battery fire. It was designed to use against flesh, human and horse. Canister shot (148 .69 musket balls, velocity 600 FPS) produses a group approximately 20 Yards across at 200 Yds. I have a balistics article that uses this round and velocity, I have no idea why as it is a modern gun writer, but he uses it as an example, this round will penetrate 27 " of homogenous flesh, so we know it will penetrate both infantrymen in a line of battle. Case shot maintains its necessary velocity to 800 Yds.

    6. Now, the Article already quoted lists scores of times the Mountain Howitzer was used during the Civil War. I know of at least 3 other battles that are not on the list. The Battle of Bean Station TN is a perfect example of the text book use of Mountin Howitzers. Jessie Law's 25th IL? battery of 6 howitzers accompanied the federal force of 600 Cav to follow Longstreet's corps after the siege of Knoxville TN. When the Confederates turned on their pursuers at Bean's Station, th eHowitzer battery split into 2 (3) gun half batteries and posted on the flanks of the Federal Dismounted Cav. They were maneuvered by hand and provided an interlocking field of fire (fired across the federal front)

    7. Doctrinal use of the Mtn Howitzer is in support of Infantry or Cavalry, by the section or half battery, generally on the flanks of the unit. Where Mtn Howitzers are mis-used is sitting in a line with field guns statically. They are to be used far forward.

    8. Carriages: There are 3 Carriages for th eMtn Howitzer, the pack carriage, which was the least common of the 3, designed to be packed on 5 horses or mules, 1 for the tube, 1 for the carriage and 3 for the ammunition. There were 2 varitations of the Prairie Carriage, 1st model 1851 and 2nd, model 1861. The both used 42" Wheels, a wider axle and were pulled behind a prairie limber.
    There were 2 variations of Prairie limber a 1st and 2nd model, each of shich held 16 rounds. There was then a Prairie caisson that held 32 additional rounds, plus 16 more on its limber or alternatively a prairie ammunition cart that was pulled by 2 horses in tandem, 32 Rds total. I have made a Prairie Caisson from Specs obtained from Antique Ordnance Publishers in MI. They are from the Period for sure. I have seen originals for sale.

    So, it would be correct to employ Mountain Howitzers in virtually any Trans-Mississippi battle, most Western Theater events through mid/late 1864 (Except maybe Shiloh, I have seen no reference to them used there) and several Eastern Theater events at least through late 1862 . This is based on the article by Mr. Grizzle. I was told by a reenactor in Huwald's Battery they were told at the Chickadusty that there were no Mtn Howitzers used in the Battle of Chickamauga. Hmmmmm. There is a monument to Huwald's Battery there, they had 4 of them present, the 18th Indiana Battery had 4, Mortons had 4, I believe, There were 7 of them captured by the Confederates from the Federals as well. This is without lots and lots of research, just scrathing the surface.
    A Former battery took our Ordnance rifle to 1st Manassas, there were no Ordnance Rifles there during the real battle, no one said anything to us. I reenact battles in my area that had no napoloens at them, no one complains if a Napoleon shows up, but it rubs people the wrong way to bring mountain howitzers.

    Just a few thoughts.

    Take care,
    Steve Cameron
    Burroughs Battery

    Comment


    • #92
      Re: Improving Artillery Impressions

      Comrade,

      No one is arguing that Mountain Howitzers were not used during the war. The question(debate, really) is where, when, and by whom.

      The only way that anyone is likely to increase the historical acuracy of their personal and/or collective impressions (and, after all, isn't that what we are really stricing for?) is by delving into the records to find what was actually used, by whom, and where and when. That's all that matters.

      Certainly the little gun that could existed. and from time to time played it's part in the war. Yet, the overwhelming number of guns actually employed anywhere were NOT mountain howitzers, but theor larger brothers. I'm not casting aspertions upon the little darlings, not is anyone else. What's being asked is that those guns be used only where appropriate, and that we NOT go looking for reasons to use them, where the inclusion of them would detract from the historical record.

      Everything has it's place in the great scheme. We simply need to start figuring out where those places are.

      Respects,
      Tim Kindred
      Medical Mess
      Solar Star Lodge #14
      Bath, Maine

      Comment


      • #93
        Re: Improving Artillery Impressions

        I agree with both Tim and Steve. For those portraying western units at western battles the Mountain Howitzer has it's place. At events in modern West Virginia, the Mountain Howitzer has its place. At Fort Sumter and even the defense of Washington and Savannah, the Mountain Howitzer has its place. There could be many small events and fixed garrison living histories where its use would not only be accurate, but would be a good educational addition for the spectator/visitor.

        I think this illustrates the need for a comprehensive listing of the battles which are reenacted today and the artillery present and used. Everyone who reenacts artillery should know that not every gun is correct to use everywhere, just as every uniform is not correct to use everywhere.

        And if the Mountain Howitzer was used but as a part of an infantry regiment, the unit using the gun should be sure to represent that infantry unit, not the fictional portrayal of the gun as part of an artillery battery.

        Our goal here is to get better at what we do and expand our knowledge base through extensive research. What we may have done yesterday may have to be changed tomorrow.

        Another project to add to my list of research! lol

        BTW - Steve's list of artillery purchases illustrates one point. The napoleon was purchased in numbers greater than any other cannon by the US. That is one cannon which most ANV or AOP batteries can use for almost any event. It had a flexability which the 6pdr Gun and the 3in Ordnance Rifle lack. It would be nice to see more of tham being bought by new batteries taking the field and old batteries looking to replace or add to their battery.
        Harry Aycock

        Chief Surgeon
        Southern Division

        Comment


        • #94
          Re: Improving Artillery Impressions

          =Light 6 Pdr

          So, it would be correct to employ Mountain Howitzers in virtually any Trans-Mississippi battle, most Western Theater events through mid/late 1864.........There is a monument to Huwald's Battery there (Chickamauga), they had 4 of them present, the 18th Indiana Battery had 4, Mortons had 4, I believe, There were 7 of them captured by the Confederates from the Federals as well.


          Your numbers dont reconcile.

          Comment


          • #95
            Re: Improving Artillery Impressions

            Chris, Nice chart. More details as to the numbers:

            1. www.tennessee-scv.org/camp1513/huwald.htm listing Huwald's battery armament, 4 Mtn Howitzers and 2 CS Mtn Rifles for Chickamauga

            2. Field Artillery Weapons of the Civil War, Mountain Howitzer Sction, Page 134 " Captain Eli Lilly's 18th Indiana Battery had four of them which saw severe action at Chickamauga. They were added to six 3 inch Ordnance rifles of the battery and apparently were frequently detached under the command of a sergeant for service with the infantry"

            3. Confederate Cannon Foundries by Larry Daniel and Riley Gunter, Cannon Channeled through the Atlanta Arsenal Pages 105-106 " The weapons listed as passed through the Arsenal on October 30, 1863 were captured by the confederates at the Battle of Chickamauga in September"

            October 30th.....among other cannon (46 in all)

            1. CA & Co no 204
            2. JRA & Co No 1555 ( Tredegar made)
            3. CA & Co No 29
            4. CA & Co No 63
            5. CA & Co No 201
            6. CA & Co No 197
            7. JRA & Co 1862 ( Another Tredegar made)

            Lilly's pieces were not in the list of 7 captured weapons, so that is at least 11 Federal Mountain Howitzers there. So it is your Chart that does not add up. I do not know definetively what the number was, but there were more than 7 federal mountain howitzers there. Also, the term howitzer was confusing then as now, field and mountain howitzers were misidentified frequently on lists. In 1861 Ordnance inspector Cpt Thomas Jefferson Rodman used muzzle number 177 for field howitzers proofed, which was actually the next Mtn Howitzer registry number. If Rodman himself can be confused by this then so can anyone.

            My point to start with was some ignorant "expert "was asserting there were NO Mountain Howitzers used at Chickamauga, either listing source prooves that statement false.

            Take care,

            Steve Cameron
            Burrough's Battery

            Comment


            • #96
              Re: Improving Artillery Impressions

              Ok, to muddy the waters more. I've seen several so called "pack parrots", at events, and I know a guy who owns one. I looked them up online once upon a time and only found the reproductions for sale. The guy I know who ones one said the US wanted a rifled mountain gun, so the parrott foundry cut the barrel of a parrot down and moved the trunions (sp) back. Are these real period pieces or something made up or a post war piece?
              Robert Ambrose

              Park Ranger
              Fort Frederick State Park, Maryland
              5th Virginia Infantry Co. K

              Comment


              • #97
                Re: Improving Artillery Impressions

                Robert,
                The Pack Parrott is a strange little gun. I have a copy of a drawing from West Point Foundry, sighned by Robert Parker Parrott and dated 1862 showing the dimensions of the piece. So we can assert that the Pack Parrott existed in drawing form for sure. From there everything else is a stretch, there is no record of even a prototype being made, much less production runs, issuance etc. I have not seen any records of thei use etc. (that does not mean there aren't records, I have never seen any, nor has anyone asked about it been able to show me any).
                My personal opinion is that the Pack Parrott is a stretch. There are several small rifles that were used during the war, 2.25" CS Mtn Rifle (19 made), 3" Blakely Rifle (200lbs) 3 surviving originals, 3 Pdr Whitworth 1 surviving original, Ellsworth breech loader ( a couple survivors). Any of these have better pedigrees than the Pack Parrott.

                Take care,
                Steve Cameron
                Burrough's Battery

                Comment


                • #98
                  Re: Improving Artillery Impressions

                  Cannons Online make and sell the “Pack” Parrot. I only have this link to contribute.

                  http://www.cannonsonline.com/product...ack_parrot.htm
                  Respectfully,
                  Mark Bond
                  [email]profbond@cox.net[/email]
                  Federal Artillery

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Re: Improving Artillery Impressions

                    Plans were drawn up for this piece by Parrott...
                    But I am not aware if it made it past experimental production.
                    To my known knowlege no original existing piece exists.
                    But it is Authentic to the point of it was experimented with.
                    Weither or no the Army Issued any I have no knowledge of.
                    [B]Rick Dennis, Major
                    US Artillery Reserve Inc.
                    [url]www.artilleryreserve.org[/url][/B]


                    [B][FONT="Palatino Linotype"]"Infantry is merely a buffer between two warring armies know as Field Artillery"[/FONT][/B]

                    Comment


                    • Re: Improving Artillery Impressions

                      Mark,

                      Yeah thats about the only place I've seen them online. Wonder where they got the "original" from? the guy I know who has one shoots NSSA and does real well, he also has it on a pack carriage. My guess was they were a type of "reenactorism", for a lack of a better word.
                      Robert Ambrose

                      Park Ranger
                      Fort Frederick State Park, Maryland
                      5th Virginia Infantry Co. K

                      Comment


                      • Re: Improving Artillery Impressions

                        Hello!

                        Working from the photo I found of a period sponge head that was left of the Gettysburg battlefield I tried my hand at making a more authentic sponge head. The photo was taken July 5, 1865 of the aftermath of the Gettysburg battle near the Peach Orchard. The sponge head looks to be a sponge from a 12 Pdr Howitzer or Napoleon based on the size. It looks to be made from sheepskin.

                        I bought a hid of genuine sheepskin and working with brass finishing nails worked the sheepskin into shape forming the sponge.
                        Attached Files
                        Respectfully,
                        Mark Bond
                        [email]profbond@cox.net[/email]
                        Federal Artillery

                        Comment


                        • Re: Improving Artillery Impressions

                          As a infantryman who owns many horses let me come to the defense of my comrades in the Artillery about the practicality of a large scale deployment of horse to move artillery.

                          For starters 6 decent health approximately matched horses are going to run you about $6,000 if you really know what you are doing and live in good hourse country, Double that if you don't.

                          NOW you have to train them. And acquire the harness.

                          But six aren't going to be enough, because during the course of a reenacting season you are going to have somebody come sick or lame. In draft horses we never expect to get to every event in a season with just a team of horses. If you don't have a spare you are cooked.

                          Let's just say you are lucky and you can get by with six. Boarding them is in my area is another $500 per month per horse. That's just room and board. It doesn't count coggins, shots, interstate health papers, or about 6 visits from the farrier annually since these are WORKING horses.

                          Then you have to find people who are experieinced horse people. And I don't mean know the manual and can stay on the horses back. I mean people who can see the subtle signs that you have a horse that is under the weather or on the verge of seriously being in trouble. Based on horse killed for meat and those who die in accidents and 'natural' causes the average lifespan of a horse in America today is 12 years. Can you just imagine the press if one was to drop dead of colic at an event?

                          The list goes on and on and on.

                          As an infantryman watching you guys I think you need to work on several things in this order of importance and then work your way up to 'million dollar
                          battery' status.

                          1) Know your drill and perform it as the book says
                          2) Dress the part as appropriate
                          3) Make you camp as accurate as possible
                          4) Then worry about an accurate gun
                          5) Next worry about the limber

                          1, 2 & 3 are no more expensive than any other reenactor and should be easy for any artillery unit to accomplish.

                          4 & 5 are where you will be shelling out the bucks and unless your unit commander's last name is Gates or Buffet there will be a limit to that.

                          I'd love to charge with (or take) the support of a 6 gun battery of Napoleans with all its equipment but that ain't going to happen and I know it.

                          So as somebody who works onimproving his impression I appreciate everything you do that can improve your realism and I'm not too worried about the pie in the sky stuff.
                          Bob Sandusky
                          Co C 125th NYSVI
                          Esperance, NY

                          Comment


                          • Re: Improving Artillery Impressions

                            Mark,
                            You are correct, and we use sheep's wool too in the NPS. Our spongeheads consist of three pieces of sheep's wool, copper nails, and a flat circular leather ring to hold it on the head. We cut two circular pieces of sheep's wool, one for the tip of the rammer, and another to go inside the head to provide cushion for the tip, thus enabling it to swab the rear of the breech effectively. I actually find it relaxing to sit around and sew them while chatting with visitors at the park.
                            [FONT="Times New Roman"]David Slay, Ph.D[/FONT]
                            [COLOR="Red"][FONT="Times New Roman"]Ranger, Vicksburg National Military Park[/FONT][/COLOR]

                            Comment


                            • Re: Improving Artillery Impressions

                              David,

                              Hello!

                              This was the first sponge head I made from real sheep wool (I have been calling it sheepskin from my own vocabulary) :). I have used Berber carpet before but I still need practice perfecting and raising my skill level in this art. I have read the manuals but I have never seen step-by-step instructions or have I hade the privilege to watch an experienced artist while at work. I have seen the finished product but watching and learning how it’s done correctly is something I look forward to doing.

                              Thanks for sharing.
                              Respectfully,
                              Mark Bond
                              [email]profbond@cox.net[/email]
                              Federal Artillery

                              Comment


                              • Re: Improving Artillery Impressions

                                I forgot one other item: we use wax coated twine to hold it all together. I use a whip stitch, and have never had a head fail due to deterioration of the twine or stitching. A large good needle helps a great deal, or else you'll quickly develop bloody blistered fingers. With practice you should be able to crank one out in less than five minutes.

                                For thumbstalls, I cheat. I take a good natural colored work glove, cut the thumb out, sew a pad over the print, and attach a wrist lace.
                                [FONT="Times New Roman"]David Slay, Ph.D[/FONT]
                                [COLOR="Red"][FONT="Times New Roman"]Ranger, Vicksburg National Military Park[/FONT][/COLOR]

                                Comment

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