Improving Artillery Drill

[Vicksburg Dave]

Re: Improving Artillery Drill

Chris wrote:
Gentlemen,

We have been stewing over the #3 man's vent stopping as well.

Hunt, Barry and French is very clear in that he stops the vent until "the round is inserted into the tube" however the NPS does follow the stopping of the vent until the round is rammed.

I am curious as to if anyone has data on recent accidents (recent being since re-enacting "began") and if this issue has played a vital role?
Data meaning time/place and witness statements, etc... not just my buddy said...
Or if there were original incidents during the war of this issue being a problem?
I know there are some collections of artillery accidents out there, but I don't have any of them nor can find them online.

Shouldn't sparks be out at this point if a 3, 5 or 10 minute delay between rounds is observed?

If rounds are made properly there shouldn't be any powder exposure until the priming wire, correct?

Are there any cases where a misfire occured while #3 was stopping and what were his injuries?

I'm sitting on the fence on this one.

Remember, let us keep this forum civil.


Chris Sedlak


Chris, you bring up some good points.

The overwhelming cause of cannon accidents in the last fifty years, (and I have examined the lists of accidents) have been due to crews attempting to fire too fast.

As I posted in my previous message on this thread, I have in my files some accounts of premature discharges during the ramming where 1 and 3 received injuries.

As for the debate over 3, 5, and 10 minutes, the only thing I can say is the longer the delay, the better your chances. NPS is wedded to 10 minutes, most sane reenactors stick to at least 3 minutes.

As for the rounds being made properly, I cannot speak for anyone else, but we use a wooden form to make our outer aluminum foil container in which we use 1lb of powder, then we use a slightly shorter aluminum foil container to hold two to three cups of peat moss. I do not know if a round has ever split or leaked during ramming, as I have never had cause to look down the muzzle after loading. lol. But, an inexperienced number 1 can ram too hard and burst the round against the back of the chamber, your number 5 can damage it while transporting it to the gun, or number 2 can damage it while placing it in the muzzle. The lesson here is that a number of people handle the round prior to ramming and rather than solely relying on the integrity of the casing, it is best to have an additional safety measure.


Numerous cases have occurred, during the war and during reenactments where number #3 lost digits due to misfires. Except when tending the vent it is our policy to never allow one's hand to pass over the vent after the round is loaded. I instruct my number 3 to go around the breech with his hand to hold the lanyard in place, rather than across in the now inserted friction primer.

If you want to do a good educational demo for your crew on what can happen to number 3's hand during a premature firing, put a steak over the vent during a controlled test fire sometime and see what happens to it. Likewise, to demonstrate what happens to number 1 during an accident, in a highly controlled situation, put one of his spare gloves on a stick in front of the gun during a firing.

Civilly,

[sedlakchristopher]

Re: Improving Artillery Drill

Gentlemen,

First, thank you to everyone for keeping this forum civil!

I too, just like all of you, am very passionate about our way of life, for some of us this is so far beyond a hobby, so we all must understand others are just as passionate of "our way" as we are of ours.

I don't think Dan and I are throwing safety to the wind. Trust me when I say I get a lump in my throat EVERY time we fire, hoping all goes well and there are no problems. We ALL understand the gravity of what we are doing.

What you all are saying makes very LOGICAL sense as to why #3 stays stopping the vent until ramming is done. We will be revisitng that issue inter-unit as a result.

I thought about this post all night. I am glad that safety issues came up and may be tackled.

However, let us remember that this is the Authentic Campaigner and not the Safety Campaigner... now don't get mad just yet...
I think we established what Hunt, Barry, French said. It's there in print.
I think we established that it may be better to keep #3 in there...

Bottom line, this may not be the forum to resolve these safety issues.
Each to his own, keeping in mind the authenticity and safety scales of balance which also include unit personalities and the attitude towards legal ramifications as a result of any particular resulting injuries.

Once again GENTLEMEN, thank you for the CIVIL discussion on a very hot topic.

I am still interested in records of artillery accidents and causes.
I do have a hard copy of those such accidents stemming all the way from the war itself. It was posted on the A/C here on another thread, but I can't find it anywhere? Anyone know what I'm talking about? It may have been Mr. Cohen that posted it?

Chris Sedlak

[Vicksburg Dave]

Re: Improving Artillery Drill

I found the source I mentioned in my earlier posts.

A. S. Bloomfield Civil War Letters, Ohio Historical Society.
Battery A, 1st Ohio Light Artillery


May 21, 1864

"Respected Sister:....[at Resaca] our battery fired three hundred rounds. we suffered no loss from the enemy but had three very bad accidents. They were premature discharges of our pieces on being loaded. It was caused by the pieces being old and breech burne. They were all twelve pound Napoleons.

The first discharge was No. 3 piece blowing offone of V. B. Standford's arms and injuring the left hand so that he had to have his two front fingers amputated. His arm was taken off above the elbow. His face was badly burned but do not think he will lose his eye sight.

The second discharge was No. 3 piece badly injuring E. Roes and J. Van Normer is badly burned and flesh cut and grains of powder in his face.

The vent thumbers thumb was blown out of place. The last we heard from them they were all getting along fine. The next morning their works were evacuated leaving three hundred wounded and their dead on the field."



Diary of Charles Affeld, Taylor's Battery, 1st Illinois Light Artillery.

Source: http://www.taylorsbattery.org/Affeld...nscription.htm

Wednesday, May 20, 1863

Douglas K. Newell on our gun was shot through the head as I was thumbing the vent of our gun while putting in the cartridge. We were now two of our number short, as I had been acting as both Nos. 2 and 4 until after Douglas Newell was shot. Newell was shot near the top of his head and the bullet came out through the occipi**tal bone. I had just put in the cartridge when he fell forward his knees on the ground and his head also.


May 22, 1863.
We did not look up to watch it soon after saw another flag on the works and nearly all of the men that were there dropped into the trench or were so wounded as to be unable to move, At about 5 P. M, as I was sponging the gun Frederick Thompson was shot through the heart, while thumb**ing the vent.



Deeds of Valor: From Records in the Archives of the United States Government ... By Walter Frederick Beyer

"A captain of a gun was thumbing the vent of a 9-inch Dahlgren as the men rammed home a 10-pound cartridge of powder, when he was knocked down by a splinter uncovering the vent. George Smith, a seaman, placed his bare thumb on the hot gain and kept the vent closed until the men finished loading; he was burned severely, but never left his station. "





A Narrative of the Services of the Officers and Enlisted Men of the 7th Regiment of Vermont Volunteers. By William C. Holbrook p. 133

On the 10th of September a serious accident occurred at the redoubt by the premature discharge of an eight inch sea coast howitzer. Our picket line had been fired into several times from the woods in front of this fort and I thought it desirable that the gunners should get the exact range of the edge of the woods at different points. A detachment from Company I was serving the gun. The catastrophe occurred in my presence and was occasioned by the carelessness of the corporal, in charge of the detail, whose duty it was to properly thumb the vent. This he did not do and by his negligence
lost the middle finger of his right hand. Private Robert Bipley of Company I, had his right arm blown off and sustained other injuries from which he died within a few days, and Private James B. Royce was blown into the air and picked up for dead. To the surprise of every one, however, he revived and is now living, being in the service of the government in the Paymaster General's office at Washington. His left arm was badly shattered, being broken four times?

http://books.google.com/books?id=zrLypzpfaNIC&pg=PA176&lpg=PA176&dq=%22thumbs+the+vent%22&source=web&ots=lLTF4qBs2a&sig=YRgYXXhl8wwoCWkuzM8PCDt7Bto&hl=en

Photo of no. 3 thumbing the vent p. 176





Thomas D. Christie Letters, Minnesota Historical Society, June 7, 1863 at Vicksburg.

http://www.mnhs.org/library/Christie/letters/transcripts/td630607.html

When I tell you that the fort has 8 guns in it, (4 of the 2nd Ills. 2 of the 12th Wis. and 2 of ours), and that we have a deep ditch running from it to the magazine behind the hill, by which the ammunition is carried to the guns without exposure; you will be able to form a very good idea of its appearance. If you could be in our fort during action and could command composure enough, amid the continual explosion of the guns on each side of you, the sulphurous smell of the burnt powder, and the fierce "whiz," "whiz" of the enemy's bullets, to observe the working of our howitzer you would see something interesting. There is No. 1: his hands face and clothes blackened with the wet powder from the sponge, on his knees ramming home the charge, (if he stood up opposite the embrasure he would get a ball in an instant). There is No. 3, (William) with his thumb on the vent to prevent a premature explosion when the piece is hot, Now the gun is loaded and Nos. 1 and 3 step back, the latter to the trail handspike to traverse the trail at the Gunner's bidding) "By hand to the front," and the piece is run up close to the embrasure, the Gunner sets his pendulum [illegible word] on its seat, sights carefully and gives the right elevation, perhaps 2 degrees. Then "Ready," "Fire," Now, if you are standing to our side where you can see, you will observe the shell flying through the air like a great black bird, make a gradual curve, and fall behind the Rebel works, then you see a white smoke where it fell, and pretty soon comes the report of its bursting. Through all the din and tumult and smoke, No. 6 sits coolly cutting the fuses to the proper time, and the proper Nos. of the Detachment carry the shells from him to the gun. According to tactics, I have nothing to do at the guns, but I have been there ever since we first opened: sometimes acting as Gunner, and sometimes changing with one of the cannoniers. We are to move into a fort tonight much further to the front, within 200 yards of the enemy, and then we may expect some warm work.

[Pennvolunteer]

Re: Improving Artillery Drill

Gentlemen,
Out here at the home of the Field Artillery, we follow the NPS standards strictly in our crew drill. I have HBF here in front of me, and true as pointed out, it says No 3 tends the vent until 2 inserts the round. You've made me review HBF and pick up on something I assumed was in there, i.e., tending the vent through ramming. However, being a Museum overseen by the Federal government, safety always prevails, as does discretion in my view.
Anyway, someone mentioned accidents, and I just want to let you know there is a fellow out here in the Oklahoma area who touts himself as quite the expert with the "Loyal Train of Artillery" who shall remain un-named, but he has a stub where his fingers used to be. Now I wasn't there, but have been told that was the result of not tending the vent in ramming and maybe some sloppy crew drill on sponging as well, which is another whole discussion and certainly a contributing factor. Again, I don't know first hand, I've met the gentleman, and the story was related to me by another redleg who is well versed in proper crew drill. But it was clearly an incident related to ramming and crew drill.

[Vicksburg Dave]

Re: Improving Artillery Drill

Chris wrote, "Bottom line, this may not be the forum to resolve these safety issues."

Actually, I think we have made progress. We have a consenus on the supremacy of HBF, and the use period of documentation for any deviations. While we may never agree on 3, 5, or 10 minutes, we can come to agreement on enough things to make it where crews can interchange members without a drop in authenticity as well as safety, that is we do not fear the new guy but are confident in his diligence. lol

If we can argue these things out on this forum and present our evidence, then maybe it will have an impact on mainstream units who are getting their drill from oral history and spurious training camps. Ultimately, I think, well read and research oriented artillerymen are the safest. They know how things were done originally, why they were done, and why some modern changes are necessary. They do not do it just because others are doing it or because the guy who owns the gun told them so.

Lord knows I have learned a lot here. My first season on the detachment, I wore a flaming red forage cap, black trousers with a red stripe, and a red fireman's shirt, and thought I looked dang good. lol

I suggest that we continue posting threads on controversial issues in our branch of service. If we do not hash out the issues in an knowledgeable manner, who will?

[sedlakchristopher]

Re: Improving Artillery Drill

David and All,
I too believe this is a mark of progress and a great place to knowledgeably hash out issues in our field.

ALSO - Make sure you check out the photo David Slay posted...

http://books.google.com/books?id=zrLypzpfaNIC&pg=PA176&lpg=PA176&dq=%22thumbs+the+vent%22&source=web&ots=lLTF4qBs2a&sig=YRgYXXhl8wwoCWkuzM8PCDt7Bto&hl=en

Photo of no. 3 thumbing the vent p. 176

Now tell me if that isn't a #3 thumbing the vent with the rammer seated?
Now the question is, did #3 fall asleep or was it intentional! ?

Chris Sedlak

[marine05]

Re: Improving Artillery Drill

Gents,

Happy Saint Patrick's Day, it is a day to reflect on our Irish heritage, and to feel pity for all those that were not born of Irish descent.

Regarding our "school" the intent was to have artillerymen feel as confident as infantry seems to and fall in with other units. We were relatively successful in that we have rounded out units for more authentic events, to include individual canneers from units that are not as high on authenticity as others.

It was run mostly by historical weapons experts and living historians from the MD state parks. We had a group of cadets from VMI there as well, they were attempting to form a saluting battery and fire "Jackson's Disciples" at school events. Non-Artillerymen were able to attend to get a better feel for what artllery does/did. We did not just do drill, but learned fuses, burned a few to show exactly how they worked, had animal handlers explaining the proper horses used for artillery, plus logistics and the space a full six gun (mostly Union) battery took up. Drill also highlighted the nuances between HBF and the NPS style drill. Not much difference, but some folks feel that it is not safe.

Make no mistake, due to the number of NPS events we do every year, we adhere strictly to the rules, plus ensure that proper drill procedures are conducted. Accidents happen mostly when you don't do things by the numbers.

Interesting post on the injuries and wounds, thanks for posting. One item concerning attention to drill and detail, the only casualty (KIA) that my artillery regiment (M-198 155-T) had in the first Gulf War was a cannon-cocker that failed to wait the proper time after a mis-fire. Primer failed, he approached to clear too soon, slow burning primer caused weapon to discharge, at the same time his head was at the breech. Recoil crushed his grape.

S/F

DJM
Member Order of St Barbara

Riamh Nar dhruid O sbairn lan - "Never retreat from the clash of spears"

[hta1970]

Re: Improving Artillery Drill

Does anyone have a copy of the NPS artillery drill in pdf which they can post to this forum?

[Vicksburg Dave]

Re: Improving Artillery Drill

I'm still waiting on a copy from my supervisor. We got plenty of hard copies laying around, but nothing electronic readily available.

[Forquer]

NPS Drill

Here 'tis.

[hta1970]

Re: Improving Artillery Drill

I just found Patten's Artillery Drill, so here is a link to a free copy of the manual for everyone to enjoy.

Let me know if there are any issues with them working.

Artillery Drill by Patten 1863
http://books.google.com/books?id=P7M..._brr=1#PPP1,M1

This is the manual which Richard Snowden Andrews based his manual.

[hta1970]

Re: Improving Artillery Drill

Ok, I have been reading throught the NPS artillery drill posted here on this forum and I have noticed a few points

1 - There is no mention of the #2 worming the piece.

2 - The NPS drill has the #3 hold the lanyard against the barrel after the primer is inserted into the vent and until the #4 is in position and signals him to move.

3 - There is no mention of using a wet sponge in the drill or dry sponging after wet sponging.

4 - NPS drill states a crew minimum of 6 yet period manuals state the gun could be served by as few as 2.

5 - The thumbstall called for in the NPS drill simply states "leather" rather than the buck skin in the period ordnance manuals.

Any comments or input?