Revolver "defarb" info/update

[Curt Schmidt]

Hallo!

I had been asked what markings are missing on the Italian reproductions relative to (so-called) "de-farbing" efforts or services. I had said that along the lines of RM's, M's, R's, and Carbines, one can "de-farb' away the modern Italian markings/stampings, but when it came to revolvers the Period markings are more complex and difficult/next to impossible to add. Reasons being repro revolvers are hard steel and hard to stamp by hand (sans heavy striking arbors are better yet hydraulinc presses) and there traditionally NOT BEING sufficient market demand for a lad to recoup/recover the expense of having hardened steel stamps made and the machines to use them.

As a result, with the exception of "Colt" marketed (but not made) Italian/Iver Johnson Colt "2nd Generation" BP revolvers, or "3rd Generation aka Signature Series" with the signatures removed from the grip frame... sadly but realisticaly the "best" or most "authentic" option open to us is to simply remove the bogus Italian markings (required to be there by Italian gunmaking laws plus the free advertising for the American importer's buisness name and/or location).
(And recolor the bogus modern Italian finishes, and either replace the grips with American Black Walnut or "color-fake' tint/stain and refinish the grips...)

And from a "Purist" POV, even the 30 some year old "Colt" "BP 2nd Genration" line will lack the random and varied small single letter or single number stamps of the sub-inspectors on various parts.

Anyways, here is a "photo montage" of typical, NUG, Period Colt revolver markings to help illustrate the "defarb' discussion:





















Curt

[rebjeb04]

Re: Revolver "defarb" info/update

Wow, hey Curt!
I was just thinking about this a week ago when I purchased an vintage 1968 Colt Walker repro from Armi San Marco. I aquired it on trade and had to order a few parts (hand and spring, hammer cam, etc.) re-work them with a file to fit. The cylinder bold was not engaging properly, but now the action is smooth and true, and it fires like the hand cannon it is. This has intrigued me about correct finishes and removing the Italian proofs, but they are stamped very deep and would leave considerable marks in removing. There is a forum thread on www.thehighroad.com that deals with Walkers specifically, and several fellas have removed bluing finishes and all. Different models require different amounts of defarbing, as well as different manufacturers i.e. Uberti, San Marco, Colt BP 2ND & 3RD Gens., Pietta, Navy Arms, and so on. Perhaps just regulating the defarb to the handle and finish of the piece would be sufficient for now. BTW, what is a period blue or finish recipe for pistols? Thanks again for the thread.

[Ken Knopp]

Re: Revolver "defarb" info/update

Curt,

As always!!...great information! I have thought about starting my pistol de-farbing project over the Holidays but quickly realized time would not be on my side. Heck, its New Years and I have yet to start. So, I sent it off to my old friend, leather "mechanic" and gunsmith, Chris Stewert (and AC member) to finish. I also sent him your instructions from the other thread - Chris has alot of experience in this and leather working and me, being the mechanical retard that I am (at least I can recognize my failings), I would prefer it gets done right (the first time). Thankfully, my Euro arms did NOT have deep markings so perhaps it will file out fine.

Recently, I endeavored this project and re-furbishing my Sam Doolin wood canteen, in both, the information here on the A/C was tremendously helpful (and a vote for the usefullness of the search engine)!

Thank you for posting Curt!!

Ken R Knopp

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Revolver "defarb" info/update

Hallo!

Sorry, side-tracked over buying a mechanical mule. :)

Yes, in my heresies, the "best" we can do with the Italian reproduction revolvers (and carbines) is to remove the bogus modern stampings and recolor the guns' wood and metal to look more like those of the Period. But, I do add the caveat that it is judgement call on the markings for sure because it is a choice being having no markings which is not PC or having modern markings which is also not PC. For me, the value judgement is that none are better than wrong- but I concede it is mental choice.

Historically, we know little to nothing about the bluing recipes and tehcniques as they were a guarded factory "secret" as well as part of the guarded secrets of the armorers/workers. And many have gone with the owners to their graves when they died.
Yes, I have a recipe book somewhere, but is generic or general, and does not speak to the secretive recipes and techniques used by say Colt or Remingotn, etc.,.

We do know that there were two basic methods.
One was charcoal bluing (aka fire blue) which was a more costly one as it invovled a very high degree of polish to the metal. Then the part was surrounded by bone charcoal and baked in a furnace until the steel went through its heat-driven color changes to the blue ranges. In the era before thermostats and temperature gauges, that was an artform and done by eye.
But, the end result was medium to dark blues suitable for higher priced presentation-grade guns and such things as presentation swords where gold inlays or decorative additions really brought out the beauty of the workmanship.
(And the pieces were coated with fish oil, applied with a rag by hand. As the heat from the part dried the oil, it left a glossy sheen to the already slightly 'wet ink" look of the fire blue, and afforded an added measure of rust resistance which ordinary bluing does not.)

And then there was the military and the general market.

And the cheap finish was hot salt bluing. Because salts were cheap, and because they create a layer on the steel, one does not need the large amount of prep work in finishing and polishing the steel. This is REALLY noticeable today if one strips the hot vat blue from an Italian gun and finds machine marks and scratches in the steel that need to be polished out.
Where hot salt/hot vat bluing is tricky, is that while we know that the used hot baths of solutions of potassium nitrate, sodium hydroxide, and water heated to the boiling point. However, the recipes known and unknown vary, say 275 °F to 310 °F. That is where reproducing the Colt or Remington, or insert carbine maker name here... blues break down because we do not know what precise recipes, heat levels, or bath time they actually used.

There are gunsmiths and gunsmiths that do "hot tank" (aka hot salt," aka "caustic salts") bluing, although most all obviously do the modern version which with normal factory metal polishing leaves an incorrect "wet black ink" look which is the same look as the Italian guns have. A few will fudge that, and be able to go for the "drier black" look of say Colt or moreso Remington.
I do not have any experience in modern hot tank work,, but over the years have known, or heard of gunsmiths who will reproduce older blues largely through experimenting with the recipe, heat, and timing, AND/OR dulling the surface of the stele parts first (one used sand blasting, another glass bead blasting). These types of gunsmiths do more "restoration" type work
on or for originals. Having had some originals restored this way, I can't tell the difference between Period and Restored. But it can be costly, depending upon the size of the part, and how many parts are going in the tank (the same for color case hardening work).

Anyways, IMHO...

The easiest "de-farb" and, IMHO still, shoold be the minimum "authentic campaigner" level acceptable "de-farb" is as i described in the other thread:

1. leaving the Italian markings intact, using the vinegar and worn 0000 steel wool technique to dull the high gloss "wet blue-black ink" look of Italian hot vat blue to a flatter black

2. using the Flitz technique, gently "fade" the bogus Italian cyandide gas pseudo color case hardening to appear more like actual Period case hardening

3. stripping, recoloring/staining/tinting the grips to look more like American Black Walnut (ABW). Some time I will have to talk about using various size needles to simulate on the Turkish Walnut or "Northern Italian Hardwood" the exposed grain of ABW grips or for that matter carbine stocks often seen on original wood. ;) :)

Curt

[Ken Knopp]

Re: Revolver "defarb" info/update

Curt,

For me, one of the more interesting aspects of your post was revealed in the secretive nature of period gunsmiths in relation to their blueing finishes. Of particular note is the parallels to leather tanners. One thing David Jarnagin has learned and related to me is that 19th century leather tanneries were incredibly guarded about their own individual leather tanning processes. Tanneries were often family businesses or internal successor dominated operations where the choice and use of chemicals, their inherent chemical interactions, hide preparations, production details, time lines, etc. were proudly held and closely guarded trade secrets. These variable production techniques often produced vastly different results that often made some tanneries products more desireable over others and some tanneries specialty operations. It seems, like period gunsmiths blueing techniques, today we know some of the generalities and even some scattered fine details but many of the more technical or most valuable tanning trade secrets remain unknown having went to the grave with these highly skilled and intelligent tradesman.

Ken R Knopp

https://www.confederatesaddles.com

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Revolver "defarb" info/update

There are a few places that do the "old style" finishing, but they are a bit secretive, as well, and their prices are not for the faint of heart!

http://www.ronsgunshop.com/finishes.html

http://www.turnbullmfg.com/store.asp?pid=20180&catid=19872

But the work is truly beautiful!