shotgun start

[Paul L Muller]

I have now a dbl barrled shotgun to use as my cavalry long arm, but need some info on the hows and whys. Q 1; Would a trooper have carried a shot pouch and horn [or flask] . Q 2 ; Would there have been cartrides made for a 75 cal gun? I have only seen 69 cal. or buck and ball. Q3 ; Those of you that carry a shotgun, what do you use for reenacting ammo? and how do you carry it? And lastly, do you'all have any helpful hints on handeling, using or carring this type of weapon? I'll hang up and listen to your responce. plm

[Mark Choate]

Re: shotgun start

Paul,

For an early to early-mid impression a powder horn and a possibles bag or shot pouch would work very well. You can also carry rolled cartridges as well. That being said, I do not advocate pouring from the horn directly into the barrel to load with. I have a friend who is now missing two fingers and has permanent powder residue in the side of his face as a result of this.

regards,
Mark

[Philip cav]

Re: shotgun start

I am sorry to hear about your friend sir. What an unfortunate accident.

[Daniel]

Re: shotgun start

The only ammo that I have read about for shotguns was on page 4 of "Bloody Banners and Barefoot Boys: A History of the
27th Alabama. The regiment carried double barrel shotguns at Ft. Henry. "Now we would have to depend on 'buck and ball'. Our ammunition consisted of paper cartridges carrying three buckshot and a round ball weighing about an ounce-similar to those used with the old fashioned musket." Hope this helps.

Dan Stewart

[TexCavly]

Re: shotgun start

Is it full length? I use the same rolled papers as everyone else. I like using a carbine sling but mine is cut off (yeah I know). I think for full length you'd want a shoulder sling, that would also insure your rammer stays put.

[Archie R. Lib]

Re: shotgun start

Paul -

I'm not cavalryman, just a mud cruncher, but.....

I believe there were shotgun "cartridges" manufactured at at least one Confederate Armory (I believe it may have been Asheville NC) which consisted of a powder load underneath 12 spherical "shot" (what we would call double-aught) in layers of 3 balls each layer, in a rolled paper or linen wrap. Unfortunately I do not have the reference in front of me. I can find it if you want.... However, if you look at Echoes of Glory (Confederate) page 44, you will see reference to the loading of a Confederate cavalry double-barrel using standard 12-projectile "double-aught" loading.

I can only assume, since they specify 12-shot loadings, that these would have been contained in a paper rolled cartridge of some sort, similar to buck and ball. It would be difficult to say the least to have to load from a ball bag and powder horn, though it certainly may have been done by horseman, especially those further away from any kind of supply system. The width/length of the rolled cartridge doesn't seem relevant anyway since you would only be looking for sufficient powder charge and buckshot loading and shoving it down the tubes. I think you could get away with any kind of rolled/simulated cartridge as long as your powder charge is sufficient.

And just at the risk of speculation, it may be safe to say that anyone carrying a double stick could easily have utilized any available ammunition at the effective range of a shotgun, to include infantry musket or rifle musket ammo, or even rocks, nails, etc. if they had powder. It would all fit, and would only need sufficient powder to send it a short way down range....

Rich

[rbruno]

Re: shotgun start

I have read several records of units being issued shotgun rounds from the ordnance depot. I have not read any accounts of men using powder horns, but that doesn't mean they were not out there, but just have not read anything about the use.

[David Fox]

Re: shotgun start

Paul: IF your shotgun is 12 guage, then it's likely a tad over .72 calibre and straight ball and buck & ball intended for .69/.71 calibre muskets would be both appropriate and authentic. This made 12 bore shotguns practical for cavalry in the same way .58 calibre Richmond musketoons were practical: ammunition commonality with the infantry. Field finds include several types of shotgun slugs, many with hollow bases which both sealed the bore and (it was hoped) stablized the flight rather on the principle of an arrow. These were almost certainly issue ammunition: the South manufactured smoothbore artillery projectiles on the same theory. Saturday I (finally) acquired Murphy and Madaus's superb "Confederate Carbines and Musketoons" (Graphic Publishers, 2002) and therein is a chapter on the use of shotguns by both Confederate infantry and cavalry. It's laced with useful quotations, some, such as one from May, 1861, which may be a tad fanciful: "a shotgun, with a ball to fit it, the same as a rifle, with patching, will throw a ball from four to six hundred yards, with as much force and accuracy as a rifle". This Mississippi writer goes on to claim "I shot a common double barreled gun against a Colt's rifle and I won the nearest shot [at] two hundred and fifty yards". In June, 1861 the Charleston "Daily Courier" quoted Tennessee officials as asserting that "a good double barrelled shot gun with Minnie balls or slugs, or buck-shot...is an effective weapon...." Later the "Courier" further opined: "A large double-barrel shot gun is a most formidable weapon...(a)ll that is needed to adapt it to field conversion is a bayonet". And, of course, such bayonets were manufactured. In 1861 the Mobile "Advertiser" asserted that "(d)ouble barrels, loaded with 'blue whistlers', would make awful havoc". This article states further that shotguns should be issued to units based upon bore size so they could use "the same cartridges"(!) The 7th Texas Infantry, entering Kentucky in November, 1861, appears to have had 156 double barrelled shotguns on strength, if I count correctly. A Confederate cavalryman in January, 1863 reported home he killed a Federal cavalryman with a shotgun by "shooting him in the back with sixteen buck-shot about ten steps from him". As late as August, 1863 Cooper's brigade of trans-Mississippi cavalry had on strength 1,078 shotguns out of a total of 2,854 long arms. I know it's verboden, but one must logically conclude this number and this emphasis on shotguns all but require the presumption the several southern states and the central Confederate government rolled and issued significant quantities of cartridges to feed them.

[Mississippian]

Re: shotgun start

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?34291-Ordnance-Returns-of-the-2nd-Mississippi-Cavalry

This is my thread about the 2nd Mississippi Cavalry, you can see that several companies were issued with powder flasks, horns, shot pouches, and "balls for shotguns". Be sure to look at everything and it will open your eyes some.

Will MacDonald

[Jimmayo]

Re: shotgun start

Shotgun cartridges were issued in various configurations (balls and slugs). Here is a slug round found in a CS cav. camp near Stoney Creek. I have a sharps bullet left of it for size comparison.

[Mark Choate]

Re: shotgun start

Will,
Thanks for that link on the issuance of the powder horns. I know there are other references to it, but that gives quick access.

Jim,
That slug is a heck of a piece of lead sitting next to that sharps bullet. Do you know what the recommended amount of black powder was for that monster??

thanks,
Mark

[Philip cav]

Re: shotgun start

That slug looks like it could do some damage to the poor unfortunate person who is hit by it!

[Jimmayo]

Re: shotgun start

Jim,
That slug is a heck of a piece of lead sitting next to that sharps bullet. Do you know what the recommended amount of black powder was for that monster??

Sorry I don't but I suppose it is in one of Dean Thomas' Roundball to Rimfire books. I have the first volume and it doesn't say much about shotguns.

[Paul L Muller]

Re: shotgun start

I am going to breath a bit more life into this old thread. I'm think I want to wrap [ roll ] shot gun cartridges to carry at Shilo, and want to ask for input as to mandel size and powder charge, and labeling. I have gone thru my mini library to no avail, so it's time to call in the big COI guns...that's you guys. plm

[Old-South]

Re: shotgun start

Dan Chmelar is the man to see. Remember his presentation at COI? I just put in a good sized order to him to help him pay for truck repairs. I encourage everyone to lend a hand to a fellow cavalier in time of need. You know they will be right!