cloth saddle skirts

[malachi]

While I read that saddle skirts were often made from canvas, several layers thick, no one ever specifies how many layers or weight of the material. I have quite a bit of 15 oz. duck and might make a set. Any advice would be appreciated.
John Gregory Tucker

[Forrestcavalryman]

Re: cloth saddle skirts

A gentlemen that I spoke to suggested 5-8 layers.

[malachi]

Re: cloth saddle skirts

Many thanks,
John Tucker

[Ken Knopp]

Re: cloth saddle skirts

Various war-time and post war sources say 3-4 thicknesses. However, that would depend on your material. Off hand, I cannot say how your 15oz compares to period duck but I believe it should NOT be too thick- certainly NOT like some of today's makers cut their saddle skirts. Make sure the material covers the tree correctly and most importantly, you use correct hardware for that saddle. Take a close look at the photos on my web site and in my book for details. Some information is not known such as stirrup straps but I can tell you they were most certainly of leather. Ethan Harrington made the only reproduction that I am aware of. Perhaps he could provide some insight and tips but do not try to modify it from the original pattern. Without more information you need to go with what the originals tell you.

Ken R Knopp

https://www.confederatesaddles.com

[malachi]

Re: cloth saddle skirts

Ken,
I have often wondered about the skirt thickness of period saddles. What weight leather by todays standards most closely matches their original skirt thickness? I had always felt that 10 oz. might be about right but would love to hear from one who has actually seen an original.
with regards,
John Tucker

[Ken Knopp]

Re: cloth saddle skirts

John,


That is a complicated question not easily answered. In short, in today’s leather world it depends upon which tannery is providing the leather, tannery practices and often where the hide comes from. In general, American tanned leather is better that Mexican and other foreign such as that tanned in Argentina. Good hides come from a lot of places but Nebraska hides (American cattle), for example are reputable because the hides tend to have less fly bites (yes, it matters!) and are good quality due to the feed and care our U.S. cattle receive. It also depends upon how it is tanned.. Herman Oak leather uses American hides and is tanned here. Some CW sutlers do not like the “break” or, surface strength of Herman Oak so they use other brands which in some cases requires more thickness to achieve the desire strength- the cost of foreign leather is often not as high too. Tandy Leather is more price driven so I am told they use South American leather that is not always of great quality. Weaver leather is good but they use both Herman Oak and Mexican tanned leather so you have to specify and be careful when ordering from them.
Please note that in the 19th century much like today, “bridle” leather or that most often but not always used on cartridge boxes, cap boxes, etc (and of course, bridles) differs in grade/surface strength/thickness from “skirting” and “harness” leather. High quality bridle leather for example, would be tanned differently than skirting and harness.
Anyway, in direct answer to your question, Herman Oak’s 9 to 10 oz leather for example would roughly equate to Confederate “skirting” leather. Bridle leather would be similar or sometimes less, say 7 - 8 oz. For other tanneries, in practice it really depends upon “where” the leather comes from and their tannery procedures.
I am not a leather expert but know enough to be dangerous so I consulted with my good friend David Jarnagin to answer this question. He knows more about 19th century leather practices than anyone I am aware of. BTW, If anyone is interested in purchasing hides of leather to make their own equipment contact me offline at my email address (NO P.M.’s) for some sources.

Ken R Knopp
krk1865@bellsouth.net

[malachi]

Re: cloth saddle skirts

Thank you so much for this detailed answer! Leather really is a study unto itself isn't it.
with regards,
John Tucker

[David Jarnagin]

Re: Pit verses drum tannage

Ken called me and asked me questions on leather weights now verses 1860’s and it is a really hard question for me to answer even after studying leather tanning for about 14 years.

One point I forgot to tell Ken and he told me to just to post the information. Make sure you ask and find out if it is pit tanned. Today most tanneries use a different method which is drum tanning. I know this is Greek to most but there is a major difference. In drum tanning a large wooden or fiberglass drum is packed with raw hide and tannin and then rotated. The agitation of the leather cause to be softer and less dense, sometime to offset this they will re-tan and rotate less in order to get the leather firmer, but it is not anywhere near the quality of pit tanning.

Pit tanning is where leather in the raw state is suspended in a vat of tannin. This makes a very dense leather that is the closest you can get to period tanning. Leather stays in the pit for about 2 weeks before going to another pit and this is generally done three times.

This a short answer so if you want to ask more questions please email me at djarnagin@bellsouth.net

Thanks
David Jarnagin
Leather Researcher and Conservator.

[malachi]

Re: Pit verses drum tannage

On the cloth saddle issue, I have seen the examples shown in Ken's book, but often read descriptions of canvas skirts implying that only the skirts and perhaps rigging were cloth. I imagined them as having exposed rawhide seats as any other mac, but with canvas skirts similar in shape to their leather counterparts. What do we know about canvas variations? were they all like the competely covered version? If they just had cloth skirts how were they attatched? Nails,tacks or what? I appreciate any help you cangive on this one.
John Tucker

[Ken Knopp]

Re: cloth saddle skirts

John, Unfortunately, there is very little documentation describing the appearance or manufacturing details of the CS cloth saddles. To the best of my knowledge there are only three surviving examples. One at the U. S. Cavalry Museum at Ft Riley KS, one in a private collection and another "out there" somewhere. The third one I remember seeing in a private collection about 1989 or so. Shortly thereafter it was sold and has been been MIA ever since. While I have heard rumors of where it is I cannot be sure.
Anyway, the two more well known examples are virtually identical in their general construction techniques and can be seen in the photos in my books. They clearly show the tree completely covered with enamalled cloth. From the records at least, I have seen no information on variances. I note and understand the stirrup straps were of leather.
One can speculate about cloth skirts on "skeleton rigged" saddles with exposed rawhide seats (similar to other CS patterns). While it seems to make sense and many may very well have been made like that, I have seen NO DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE or artifacts to back up that theory. Perhaps others may have read or found some information or other evidence may come to light someday but this is all I know to the best of my knowledge. Sorry I could not be more helpful.

Ken R Knopp

[malachi]

Re: cloth saddle skirts

I am hoping to find Mr. Ethan Harrington. Ken made reference to his having once made a cloth saddle, and I need to pick his brain as I am attempting the same. I don't know protocol on finding a member. If anyone knows how I might reach Mr. Harrington, I would be eternally in your debt.
God bless and keep you all,
Greg Tucker

[Forrestcavalryman]

Re: cloth saddle skirts

PM Me Greg, I have made one as well and would be happy to help if I can

[malachi]

Re: cloth saddle skirts

Not to beat the proverbial dead horse, but I am wondering if anyone can tell me why the cloth saddles were so universally hated by troopers. Besides looking odd, all I can figure is that any wrinkles in the seat or skirts were made permanent by the enameling process and uncomfortable to the rider. Do the written accounts bear this or any other specific problem out? In Ken's book, I remember an officer pleading the ordnance dept. for saddles of any type except cloth.
Thanks in advance, and God Bless you,
Greg Tucker

[Ken Knopp]

Re: cloth saddle skirts

Despite several references to the disdain for the saddles there are no details provided that I can recall. I might surmise it for several reasons. Beyond their appearance they would be uncomfortable as you note; and while leather and rawhide provide a smooth surface to slide one's posterior, the friction from cloth (even enameled) would create heat and chafing; and last, in the dead of the summer especially when the saddles are new, I can only imagine the heat, stickiness, chafing, sores and pain a thirty mile march would engender.

This is an opinion but then many years ago I made a canvas surcingle for myself. It was wide and covered a large part of the seat of the saddle. I quickly found out that my ass got sore from the friction of the canvas.
Of course, I am not sure if this has anything to do with it or not but, I have long been accused of being a candy ass which may account for my problem but at that time it was not as soft (nor as large) as I find it today.

Just my 2 cent (candy) opinion,

Ken R Knopp

[Mark Choate]

Re: cloth saddle skirts

While I cannot speak to Ken's concern of being a "candy-ass" :wink_smil, I can add that this is the reason when on a long distance campaign event, covering many miles, I will occasionally see a trooper fold a shelter half and place it against the horses back and under the saddle and will instruct him to take it off. If he is desiring to have it under the saddle, he needs to place a blanket between the horse and the canvas. It will chafe the back just like sand paper. It also does not "breath" like a blanket will and traps heat and sweat. Not good at all.

Mark