Cavalry equipment question - percussion caps

[Gus49OVI]

Good Day,

Long time Infantry guy that is now being recruited to a Cav unit. There is a tremendous amount of great and helpful information here on the carbine ammunition and accoutrements, however whatever help/recommendations you may offer regarding how the caps for the pistol were carried would be appreciated.
Were they carried in a regular cap pouch or differently?.
Any insight regarding carrying the pistol cartridges is also appreciated. I noted one of the posters here mentioned the lack of written documentation on these issues and boy, is he correct! Even the unit histories are anemic when it comes to this stuff...

All of Your Insight Is Much Appreciated,
Gus Gallagher
Late of the 1st MA Cav

[DBVaughn]

Re: Cavalry equipment question - percussion caps

Hummm,
Let's think this one through. You are on horseback. You have carbine cartridges in a box designed for 20 cartridges. You have a cap pouch with carbine caps. The carbine is the weapon of choice on horseback or when called on to dismount.
You have saddle bags that are full of horse care items and not terribly accessible and of course no knapsack. Don't really want to give up haversack space for ammunition if possible.
Those pistol caps are difficult to place on the pistol cones. The pistol rounds are rammed down in a manner not easily done on horseback. Mainstreamers opt for additional cylinders. I think the remaining option is pockets!? Maybe the wagons? Likely you only have 6-10 rounds at a time, since the pistol will be for emergency use only when caught in a rare melee.
I have seen plenty of quartermaster reports for Cavalry units and no additional equipage is issued for such on the federal side.
I have been studying Illinois cavalry units for nearly 20 years and don't have a good answer either.
Good luck on this one.
Mark Hess

[Steven Dacus]

Re: Cavalry equipment question - percussion caps

Gus,

Welcome to the "Dark" side! Pistol caps came in with the cartridges in the small wooden boxes. Depending on what kind of pistol box you have, you should be able to put about three boxes (of 6 cartridges) in your box. As stated above, the caps are in that wooden box wrapped in paper.

According to most cavalry manuals and unofficial directives, a trooper should have the skill and ability to load all weapons at all gaits (including at the gallop). Our group has had fun training days galloping around a 1/2 mile track and seeing how long it takes to load your pistol. Yes, those caps are extreemely difficult and it is very temping to get those capping tools. But once you get your riding down and you can fully concentrate on your pistol, then it comes a bit easier.

In short you are exactly right on the difficulties, but consider it a challenge to train and be able to do what few cav reenactors can do today.

[Jimmayo]

Re: Cavalry equipment question - percussion caps



No caps in this box. Only six bullets. This one came from a batch of around 15 boxes like this one in Cal 32 and 44. None had caps included. There was a small tin of caps. Leaves me to wonder why more small tins are not dug often if they were issued as such.

[rbruno]

Re: Cavalry equipment question - percussion caps

A few thoughts on your question.
Where pistol rounds/caps carried? This might depend on which side you are doing. Fed or CS? For Feds, they did have a pistol cartridge box that was issued. But, just like anything else, equipment can be hit or miss as to what was issued to a trooper. There are plenty of photographs of Fed troopers with a pistol box, but there are also plenty with out. This would be another thing that would be based on which unit you are portraying. If your unit was issued pistol boxes, then that is easy. You would carry your rounds and caps in the pistol box. I have seen issues or revolver rounds and pistol caps. I wish I could dig back through my info to post a return, but I can't put my hands on them right now. I don't believe the caps would have been loose in the bottom of the box. I would think they would be in the packs and used when the gun was loaded. But, Jim's example counters that idea. So, not sure on that one. For CS, I have not come across a pistol box issued. I am sure they had one in their ordnance manual because it is basically the Fed version. So you could carry rounds almost anywhere you could reach. Pockets, poke sacks, haversack, etc. For CS, the pistol issue is always a topic of discussion because of how varied CS cavalry was armed. Some no pistols. Some equipped. Again, unit specific research can help with that. Many CS troopers were also short on cartridge boxes as well, so they would carry rounds in a variety of places.
As for loading, as Steve mentioned it gets easier as you practice and gain experience. Just because it is hard for us, doesn't mean it was hard for them. We ride and reenact a couple weekends a year. Those troopers did it everyday. They were accustomed and more important trained to do these things everyday. I have loaded my revolver many times on horseback. While I have not done it at a gallop, I have done it moving around. You concentrate hard enough, you can get those caps on a nipple even when your horse is moving around.
Good luck on your research and glad to see a new trooper heading to the mounted side.

[Gus49OVI]

Re: Cavalry equipment question - percussion caps

Gentlemen, First and foremost, your sincerity, insight, and best wishes are most sincerely appreciated. We are gathering our hardware this off season and begin mounted training with an experienced Cavalryman in the spring. Saber drill has already commenced (gives us something to do...)Some of us are brushing up, and some are first-timers, and we like the fact that this was the route the US Cav took at the War's onset with a bunch of New Englanders that had little to no mounted experience. What I take collectively away from your posts are twofold; first, chances are (even with capping on horseback) the pistol was held in reserve and it was not common for a 'in-the-saddle" reload to take place. Second: Therefore, keeping the caps in the pistol box (if we so choose dependent upon the equipment records) will be the sensible thing to do, or, having the small tin in an accessible pocket somewhere. Again, not relying upon a mounted reload but only when the carbine is out.
Also, where in your opinions is the best example of cav leathers to be found for carbine and pistol box, AND, for those doing US, your recommendations for where to find the proper "cav" or "dragoon" blanket.
Again, My Thanks,
Gus

[Steven Dacus]

Re: Cavalry equipment question - percussion caps

Jim,

Thanks for the correction. I was referencing a reference in a local diary of a western unit that mentioned the caps came in a "7th" hole in the wooden block. Of course I can't find anything right now, but if I remember right there were two major kinds of manufacturers. One with the six holed block (significantly more prevalent) and a 7 hole block. I could be way off as I am trying to remember when I, myself, studied this topic some 4 years ago. If anyone gets the info before I can get to it, I would be greatly appreciative. Great discussion.

[rbruno]

Re: Cavalry equipment question - percussion caps

Gus,
For the blanket, honestly the best way is to keep an eye on the forum for someone selling an older Charlie Childs or FHW blanket as far as having the best. They come up, but I will admit, rarely. They are so prized because very few people even made them and they haven't been made in a long time. John Nolan talked about trying to put together a group of people who wanted one and then have Pat weave some on order, but I am not sure that really got anywhere. Mainstream sutlers have them and I think they are made by Woolrich which again is not a great authentic blanket.
When you say example of cav leather, do you mean who is reproducing those items or where can you view originals?

And, back to the pistol discussion. Historically the use of the revolver really depends again on time and place. Even on the US side, in the beginning of the war,there were pistol and sabre companies. They didn't have a long arm. So those units had to be well trained in using the revolver as a principal weapon. Good commanders would only use the companies for specific duty for which they were armed. Now in modern reenacting when most units are fully equipped and for what we do at events, I very rarely ever use my revolver. In fact, the only time I can say I have used it was when we did a couple Mosby events. It was the Mosby events that I had worked on loading while on horseback and moving around. Other than that, I barely ever take it out of the holster.

[Tom Craig]

Re: Cavalry equipment question - percussion caps

Gus,
Welcome to the cavalry! And specifically welcome to cavalry in New England! There aren't a lot of folks doing cavalry correctly anymore, and it's always good to see more. I ride at the head of the 1st Maine, and most of our active folks are in New England, but I cut my teeth in the 1st Massachusetts Cavalry (now defunct) that was at that time one of the original units in reenacting in New England.

The other fellas have answered your questions pretty well. As Federal cavalry you would have a pistol box to keep your rounds in. Those rounds were issued in packets that SHOULD fit in the box that you have if the boxes are each made to the right dimensions. Some of those ammo boxes contained caps, some did not. I find that I can fit rounds and a small tin of caps in my pistol box. After many many moons of doing this, I can load pretty easily from horseback. Folks who are new, not so much. It would have been somewhat easier for the original crew because they put their entire round down the cylinder at once, and used nitrated paper. A couple of our guys use similar paper, but they still need to wad the barrel with something which takes an extra step. The caps are tricky, but once you figure out your system and technique, they aren't so bad. I think the original guys wouldn't have loaded pistols that often during combat, or if they did they would have been behind the shelter of other units actively fighting.

As to blankets. As has been said, Charlie Childs blankets, and Family Heirloom Weavers are the best, but are no longer in production. They occasionally come up for sale here and elsewhere online if you keep your eyes out. Woolworth makes a cav blanket, but it is not 100% wool, and is too big and too heavy. It looks correct from an arms length away but on close inspection is clearly not right. If you can't get a good cav blanket an excellent idea is to use a high quality sleeping blanket. Cavalry troopers routinely put their sleeping blankets under the saddle for extra padding and reduced dead weight on the horse. Also, cav blankets would have worn out at an alarming rate and would need to be replaced. So a sleeping blanket pressed into service makes all the authentic sense in the world.

Leathers: Unfortunately quality makers have dried up as well. Duvall stuff is fantastic if you can find it on the resale market. Otherwise your best bet is the resale market. There are a couple of guys making stuff new but they have very long lead times.

I don't know if you're on Facebook, but if you are there is a group for authentic cavalry where you can often find gear that is up for grabs. Send me a PM and I can get you an invite. Likewise, I am happy to help anyone who wants info on cavalry and wants to do it right, so feel free to contact me directly or ask questions.

Take care,
Tom Craig
1st Maine Cavalry

[IowaYank]

Re: Cavalry equipment question - percussion caps

About 5-6 years ago I was in full time production mode making pistol cartridge arsenal packs. I think for Bummers in 2009 I made over 75 arsenal packs for guys at the event.

As far as pistol cartridges go; you can roll them without needing to have any type of wad above the round. I would use cigarette rolling papers as they burn very well. The dowel rod I used was tapered so that the round was tapered like originals. When inserting the round tapered end first it ensures that the round breaks open when rammed, exposing the powder. The .44 caliber cartridges I would put 30 grains of powder and then add Cream of Wheat above that, both still within one cartridge. After twisting off the top I would pinch that tail in my hand and flick the round back and forth a few times. This ensured that the powder and the CoW didn't mix. The only reason I needed to add CoW was because there needed to be more mass in the cartridge to give it a good pack. The .36 caliber rounds were just powder because there was enough mass for the smaller cylinder. Never had any issues with chain fire.

Everyone has been accurate so far in stating that they made both 6 and 7 hole blocks. I was reproducing the 7 hole block. In that 7th hole a paper tube contained 8 caps. Arsenal packs were also produced with pasteboard boxes instead of the wooden block and finally loosely wrapped like an infantry arsenal pack; that was much less common however.

I visited the Museum of the Confederacy probably ten years ago or so and was able to get access to the collections in the basement. Took notes and measurements on CS arsenal packs however that all is currently at home somewhere.

[David Jarnagin]

Re: Cavalry equipment question - percussion caps

Not to throw a monkey wrench in the works but there were pistol cap pouches made as you can see from attachment. I have seen one original but I do not know how many states made them.

David Jarnagin

[IowaYank]

Re: Cavalry equipment question - percussion caps

Any images? How do they vary from a traditional cap pouch?

[rbruno]

Re: Cavalry equipment question - percussion caps

That is interesting. I have never heard of that. Could it be a mistake? As Dan said, would love to see a picture or description.

[thomas aagaard]

Re: Cavalry equipment question - percussion caps

The "danish exchange" that is collection of items sent to Denmark in 1858 was a compleet set of infantry equipment and one of cavalry equipment.
(- weapons)

That included a cavalry cap punch.
(that is the collection include two cap pounches... Iam not sure if they are the same type)

Here are a few pictures.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/1rljtm2pvrznurb/AAD122e2qANwbkCR7g-y7Nwla?dl=0&preview=P1010722.JPG

[David Jarnagin]

Re: Cavalry equipment question - percussion caps

Here are a couple of images. This one was made by Gaylord and the quarter is in the picture for size reference.

The Danish exchange pictures are of regular cap pouches. The first one is on an infantry waist belt and the second is on an Artillery sword belt. These are arsenal made cap pouches.


David Jarnagin