Outpost III - AAR Thread

[Kiev Thomason]

Re: Outpost III - AAR Thread

Frank - was that your tin horn bugle we heard? Brings back great memories.

It was probably a universal feeling that it was prudent to fight you in the open using our interior lines and buglers, rather than plunge more into the forest and find ourselves in a real fix, not able to properly support each company. We moved Co A into the little finger of woods on your far left flank to push Craddock's boys on the other side of the woods Sunday AM. All of a sudden we were attacked to our left rear and only escaped to our right via single file on the run through an opening into the big field and the protection of the Critters. I imagine that was Pat's other platoon and the trap nearly worked to perfection.

That was me and a few men from Corbin's heros.We thought you all was gonna fly away ya moved so fast:wink_smil

[Kiev Thomason]

Re: Outpost III - AAR Thread

I just wanted to say how much I enjoyed the 20th Tennessee rations, and was delighted to discover a half cup of that delicious parched corn in my haversack last night. The little green onion went into my breakfast eggs this morning. It was still good and tasty. I'm not sure what the rump side of the commissary operation was like, in terms of waste, but the rations appear to be right about on the money.

By the way, just what were we supposed to do with those blue, green, and grey-white oversized poker chips?

Put them over the eyes of you dead pards..:wink_smil

[Jim of The SRR]

Re: Outpost III - AAR Thread

Regarding First person at WIG events.

We have never promoted any of our events as First person-deep immersion events. We do ask that folks come with a good attitude and willingness to live the Military culture non-stop for the full duration of the event (we consider this positive attitude more important than the material culture details... in other words, a Jacket made by less than accurate methods, worn by someone with a great attitude and willingness to participate, is more desired than the most authentic wearing individual who is less than willing to play well with others, comply to military duties at all hours of the day and night, and at least try to let go the modern talk for the week end).

Mr. Hicks has said it better than I can. I believe his statement embodies what we should strive for. I instructed my men to to be considerate to those around them when talking out of first person. SCAR is also not big on first person, but you also did not hear Monty Python jokes being shouted out at an event like Outpost. For us, playing the part of a soldier for the weekend was immersive for us. Simple tasks like gathering deadfall and cooking are immersive for us without forced period conversations. What conversations I could hear were politics, women, big-fish stories, etc. Nothing that really ruined my moment and it was stuff that seemed very similair to the topics the real men might have discussed. As one of our men stated already, when we got to our first camp on friday night and were ordered to drop packs and sleep on arms in our place, we knew it was "game on!" Thus, it seems setting the tone for the weekend seems to be a critical aspect to keeping the integrity of the experience.

Jim Butler

[Hank Trent]

Re: Outpost III - AAR Thread

at least try to let go the modern talk for the week end

Mr. Hicks has said it better than I can. I believe his statement embodies what we should strive for. (snip) For us, playing the part of a soldier for the weekend was immersive for us.

Exactly. That seems to be just what's wanted and the vast majority of reenactors in the c/p/h wing are happy. So why even bother discussing more first person as a potential improvement? If it hasn't changed in all these years, it's not going to, without implementing a totally different approach. People are doing what they want to do.

I'm coming from a different place, since I like to see it approached with the Yoda philosophy, where it's do or do not; there is no try. Events like Outpost and the many other campaign events over the years "do" very well what they set out to "do," as shown by the many enthusiastic AARs.

Worrying about "trying" to do something else only dilutes the achievement.

Hank Trent
(and keeps giving me false hope, durn it!)
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Johnny Lloyd]

Ruminations

To all:

Wow, this thread is huge. Much to say about Outpost since it was so well-done. I will format my personal report as we Army-folk used to do. No severe criticism, just things I think we can ALL (myself included) can improve on.

After-Action Report from Johnny Lloyd is as follows... break:

3 Cons:

1) Lapses in first-person (myself included)... This has already been covered- 'nuff said and no reason to kick a dead horse. I don't know if we will ever solve this to everyone's satisfaction- we aren't professional actors and some people feel "hokey". I like first-person and am willing to participate any time. For this event, I tried to copy what I saw as the 89th's uniform in the picture provided and I researched the jobs at the Chicago stockyards in the period. This added greatly to the fun and enightenment for me during the event. Even though I am from the South, I felt like a foreigner on southern soil from the research I did on the 89th for the event. Great experience...:)

2) Individuals as participants needed to do more research on the regiment portrayed and up to what time period portrayed the event was to have taken-place. There seems to be confusion on this discussion thread as to what time period when we were exactly supposed to be. This needs to be a tad bit more delineated to the lower levels (NCOs and PVTs). Rumors were abound on messes forums in this respect and some I read were erroneous compared to what I discussed with those attending the event and what was on the official website. I think this caused confusion.

3)Light and sound discipline... especially on guard. Lordy, gents, I could see who was doing what in pitch-blackness on the Confederate side in regard to pickets-on-duty from the sounds and sights they were making. NCOs need to police this and every man needs to watch himself. If I was a real Yankee sniper, I could follow your guard-mount movements to each post as the relief came and shoot one of you out of the clear blackness. The moon was pretty clear and I could also see where sentinels were too. Someone was telling jokes and laughing to his comrade that had come to visit him... and one guy had a bad cough... and one man was smoking a pipe... etc.
Guard mount ceremony/formation moving in the underbrush on the Confederate side helped me hear what was going on and who was where in the darkness. (Perhaps the pickets were in too heavy of brush and they needed to be moved?)
This brings a point, while it might be in books on how to conduct guard mount, what was REALLY practiced in the field while under threat of sniper eyes and fear of men's lives? Can someone enlighten here? Do we have documentary evidence in-this-respect to illustrate this? I do not know enough to comment on this question "and knowing you don't know is the first step to learning".
Or so my momma says...:p


3 Pros: (let's end on a high-note:D):

1) Well-organized, planned and executed!!! Let's hear it for the WIGs and all those that had a tremendous task in organizing the event. This was no small feat in "crowd-control" and organization. Logistics for the event was well-done and we as private felt welcome and well-taken care of by our leaders, both NCOs and Officers. This all is NO small task. Leaders were verycompetent in their roles as officers and NCOs- thanks gents!

2) Great civilian interraction! The civilians made us as federals feel like intruders upon someone's space. I made sure to be on my best behavior in front of the women-folk as it was un-gentlemanly to swear, smoke or use bad manners in front of such family-people. This added a great element of realism. Sometimes I got the feeling the townspeople were hostile to us blue bellies, but were not telling us for fear of their lives and home. Just give 'em coffee and keep them happy... :D VERY period- many people in the real war would not have "gotten out of Dodge" in time enough for the "blue horde" to sweep into their homes and communities. Yes, there were plenty of refugees, but there were plenty of people willing to protect everything they had by staying behind- perhaps they had nowhere else to go. Thanks for the great time in this respect, it added an element of great realism.

3) Tactics were solid and the maneuvers were done as well-as-possible for what leaders knew at the time they did them... "No plan survives first-contact with the enemy" is a military maxim and it sure held true for us at Outpost. I felt, from a Federal private's perspective in the battle, the officers making the decisions were doing what they could when they could to hold our lines... reinforcing areas of known weakness, placing platoons in an area where attack was easily possible, playing-upon the enemy's weakness as he showed them to us, etc. Good role-portrayal! Thank you, gentlemen! An honor to serve under your leadership.

And finally, my gratitude to Messrs. Brian Hicks, Terry Sorchy, Art Milburn, Preston Todd, Mike Pretus, Jim Butler, and Tim Arnold for their friendship and support for the event to me. Thanks for all those names I cannot remember or have failed to mention as well.

It was a kick to meet ya'll instead of just corresponding via e-mail and phone calls too. If you ever need me for anything, please let me know! I'll be here. Don't be a stranger in calling or e-mailing me.

Not one moment since did I feel regret that I spent the time or money to come down to Tennesee to Outpost. It was about as close to the 1860s as we can get today. I know most everyone I have talked to has had the same feeling... well-worth the trip and experience!

Good totally outweighed the bad for the entire event and that is a stunning success in my book!

See ya'll at Winter 64- Johnny Lloyd

[theknapsack]

Re: Outpost III - AAR Thread

As far as the lapses in First Person are concerned, I don't think I heard a break in first person the whole weekend in my company. It was really an amazing experience.

[Kevin O'Beirne]

Re: Outpost III - AAR Thread

Yikes! Hank is suggesting abandoning first-person at campaign events?! :)

The Scenario: I was somewhat confused about the event scenario early on, as to whether it represented post-Stones River or "advancing along the Nolensville Pike on 12/26/1862"; I guess after reading the information posted on this forum and related links, and what I could glean from the event website, I took it that it was 12/26/1862. A few days before departing for the event, I posted on this forum that an overcoat would be a good idea to bring because we were portraying late-December, and was informed that the scenario had changed to "October 1862". October 1862 saw the Army of the Ohio (soon to be renamed Army of the Cumberland) and the Army of Mississsippi (soon to be renamed the Army of Tennessee) maneuvering and fighting through Kentucky, with the two forces moving back into northern/Middle Tennessee after the conclusion of the campaign.

Below is a partial summary of the service of the 89th Illinois from Frederick Dyer's "A Compendium of the War of the Rebellion":

SERVICE.--Pursuit of Bragg into Kentucky October 1-15, 1862. Skirmish at Lawrenceburg, Ky., October 7. Battle of Perryville, Ky., October 8. March to Bowling Green, Ky., and Nashville, Tenn., October 16-November 7. Duty at Nashville, Tenn., till December 26. Advance on Murfreesboro December 26-30. Nolensville, Knob Gap December 26. Battle of Stone's River December 30-31, 1862, and January 1-3, 1863. Duty at Murfreesboro till June. Reconnoissance from Murfreesboro March 6-7. Middle Tennessee (or Tullahoma) Campaign June 22-July 7. Liberty Gap June 22-27. Occupation of Middle Tennessee till August 16. Passage of the Cumberland Mountains and Tennessee River and Chickamauga (Ga.) Campaign August 16-September 22. Battle of Chickamauga, Ga., September 19-20. Siege of Chattanooga September 24-November 23. Chattanooga-Ringgold Campaign November 23-27. Orchard Knob November 23-24. Mission Ridge November 25.

The bold text above is my emphasis, covering the period I thought we were to portray and what we eventually did portray. I infer from the above that the 89th Illinois did not reach the Nashville area until November 7, 1862. Thus, perhaps we were portraying an October date in Kentucky, but shortly after the battle of Perryville (if my memory serves me correctly) Bragg's and Buell's armies parted ways until re-connecting with each other in Middle Tennessee in November-December. I'll freely admit that my information on this time period and this regiment, let along the Confederate regiment portrayed (20th Tennessee) is so small as to be virtually nil, so hopefully someone can shed more light on it.

I believe that first-person does have a place at an event like Outpost 3. I'm not a fan of the hokey, "Hey, remember when your wife had a child back home last month?" (said to a reeanctor who is not married and just found out that he allegedly has a wife and kids). However, one can discuss the "here and now" as "first-person" and engage in first-person activities. For example, for a while when I was a guest of the Rebel provost guard on Saturday at Outpost 3 I removed my sack coat and spent a good 20 minutes or more "doing some knitting" (going through the jacket's seams for graybacks). During most of the time I was a "prisoner" I attempted (I will not claim that I was in "first-person" constantly throughout the event, and my own level of comitment to it, like many folks', seems to diminish the longer an event goes on; Saturday evening our in-bivouac conversation had fairly little first-person about it, but hopefully it was also in low tones so that it did not affect others) to exhibit behavior akin to how I understand most prisoners acted--sullen, downhearted, obedient to the orders of their captors, and probably apprehensive at being shot at any moment for the slightest infraction. During the weekend I tended to informally address my company commander as "Cap" (short for "Captain") merely because A) I've never done that before, and B) I've read numerous first-person accounts of volunteer soldiers addressing their captain that way.

I believe there's a middle ground when it comes to first-person. Most reenactors are not "actors" and most probably feel foolish getting "too far" into first-person impression. Certainly, few reenactors have the ability and commitment to it that someone like Hank Trent does (and I mean that as a compliment to Hank). The "middle ground" is to:

* Attempt to avoid modern talk, especially in formations and when others can overhear it.
* Keep most talk to the "here and now"--do the officers seem to know what they're doing? do your feet hurt from the march? are you cold or hot? is the food in sufficient quantity and quality? Soldiers talked of these things all the time.
* For times when the talk will not be periodish, or will include modern things, keep it at low enough volume so it's not intrusive to others nearby.
* Period-correct activites help foster first-person, I believe, and make good fodder for discussions. What's out there beyond the picket line?, for example.
* Basic background information made available for participants helps. It's easy to say "find it yourself" but the more an event sponsor or battalion staff make the info easy to find, the more likely it is that participants will read 'n heed it. Some of the best, company-wide first-person I've seen is when period census data on the area(s) where the company portrayed was recruited, when more than one person was doing historical research and then disseminating it to the company, and discussion on the information ensued prior to the event. At Burkittsville 2001 other Yanks wondered why our company made barnyard noises wherever it went; our members' research showed that the regiment we were portraying was known for such things, so we did it (darned shame that no means was available to transmit that info to others in the event's Yank battalion). Making those noises was fun, lent some esprit-de-corps to our company, and was certainly first-person and period-correct, but yet hardly required anyone to be a thespian. Similarly, at Outpost 3, the times on Sunday when the Yanks roared "Clear the rails!" (the actual batlte cry of the 89th Illinois) was also good "first-person" impression.

Certainly, a much higher level of first-person is possible. The vast majority of reenactors, however, do not possess the skill, knowledge, and comfort level with this "depth" to really even attempt it without it being poor theater.

In the Columbia Rifles we have espoused the "authenticity triad" (Man, Methods, Materials) for years, and also cautioned that the "Man" is the most difficult component of the triad to learn and practice successfully.

[Kevin O'Beirne]

Re: Ruminations

This brings a point, while it might be in books on how to conduct guard mount, what was REALLY practiced in the field while under threat of sniper eyes and fear of men's lives? Can someone enlighten here? Do we have documentary evidence in-this-respect to illustrate this? I do not know enough to comment on this question "and knowing you don't know is the first step to learning".

That's a good question, and one that represents the hallmark or someone who was "caught thinking again". :) "How they did it" was, at times, different from what the manuals and handbooks said.

The answer is that there was no one way picket duty was done in the face of the enemy, even within a single regiment within the same week.

Of course, for camp police guard and probably opposing pickets during winter quarters (when informal truces kept hostilities to a minimum), one man was posted to each sentinel position and the corporal of the guard marched a relief around every hour or two to put a fresh sentinel at each post, with the other reliefs located at the guardhouse or outpost/support a distance behind the line of sentinels.

In active campaigns in the face of the enemy, marching reliefs around could be hazardous, so other expedients were sometimes resorted to. There was always a chain of outposts/supports with men at them, and a larger reserve a distance behind that, and then the main unit's main camp (which in many cases was a long distance from the sentinels). However, I've read first-person accounts--and most that I've read are from the Eastern theater of the war--decribing the reliefs being posted like the Regs say, and others with the men of all three reliefs at a given sentinel post (taking turns standing watch), and even variations in between, like two men at a given sentinel post.

The extent to which the opposing sides should have exhibited "light and sound discipline" would, I think, have depended on the scenario we were actually portraying. If it was the Nolensville Pike on 12/26/1862, that was one army marching out to do battle with another with everyone knowing it, so discipline on the picket line would probably have been tight. If, on the other hand, it was a (say) October-November scrimmage near Nashville during a period that did not represent an active campaign, perhaps the troops would have been "more loose" with picket-line discipline.

On the other hand, what we were actually portraying was a fierce two days of rumble between two battalions, not just a period of relative inactivity. Hence, men on the picket line should probably have been avoiding lighting pipes at sentinel posts and stuff like that.

I freely admit I know nothing of how the 89th Illinois or Willich's brigade did picket duty during the autumn and winter of 1862-1863 and that, of course, is the yardstick against which this historical depiction should be measured, if the documentation is available.

[IowaYank]

Re: Outpost III - AAR Thread

My opinion is that not doing first person at an authentic event just makes it guys sitting around with good kits. If I wanted to reenact and hear about modern things I could go to a mainstream event. If we are trying to recreate being Civil War soldiers, the talking is a big part of it.

[Anna Allen]

Re: Outpost III - AAR Thread

Worrying about "trying" to do something else only dilutes the achievement.

Hank Trent
(and keeps giving me false hope, durn it!)
hanktrent@voyager.net

I would agree. People I think worry way too much about first person. Just keep it simple and go with the flow. I'm not really good at it myself, but I am usually pretty aware of what I say and how I'm saying it. If I can't think of something to say without adding some modern comment, I'll just keep that thought to myself. Of course then people accuse me of being too shy. But I don't worry about that because there were shy people in the period as well. Probably more of a period thing for me to not open my mouth every chance I get anyway, as a young woman from the period. At least when I'm around a bunch of rowdy yankees. ;)

Some of the best first person I've been involved in was when I didn't even realize we were doing first person until after the fact. But I've gotta say, bad first person is worse than breaking character. And I think there's a point when it just starts to get really fake.

Also, what's with the corny accents?? That's another thing I get a little ticked off at people for at events. If you're going to talk in a different accent, be sure you're doing it right. And don't do it off and on. That's so tacky and obvious to everyone around you. Save yourself from looking ridiculous and either do it right or don't do it at all.

My two cents.

[Dale Beasley]

Re: Outpost III - AAR Thread

*Events drive first person. If there is downtime, then expect some "not so period conversation".

*Port Gibson 2003, well guys you have to admit, after the first mile...we were there.

*Bloody 0200 hrs Sat morning at Outpost III, we were there...after that it came and went.

*Like a post stated earlier, we are not actors.

***OK, we can work on first person, what else besides staying engaged can we do to make our events better?

[Matt Woodburn]

Re: Outpost III - AAR Thread

Eliot,

Yes I was the Confederate Orderly Sgt. you escorted through the lines. I enjoyed our first person exchange and also with your corporal of the guard who I'm fairly certain was Troy Groves. Thanks to the ladies at the cabin and the "brother" prisoner for other nice moments.

[Jim of The SRR]

Re: Outpost III - AAR Thread

There was a good (not hokey), first person scenario that Company A for the battalion on the Federal side. Historically, Illinois soldiers were being denied the right to vote. Several men from Company A came over and asked us to sign a petition to present to the Colonel to petition us to get our right to vote back. Seemed simple, but it then unleashed some great first person in our company. Men were now fired up about losing their voting rights. Many stated their political view (period views) in no uncertain terms (i.e. "I damn sure ain't gonna vote for no slave liberator!" etc). It was simple, no over-acted and didn't seem forced.

The other obstacle to first person is that most of us get together only 4-6 times a year. I know it is not an excuse, but that time is quality time to be with friends. Personally, as long as these guys are respecting the people around them and not ruining other peoples experience and as long as they are acting the part of soldiers, I am pleased. But again, that is just what I look for in our hobby. Others seek different things and prioritize them differently.

Regards,
Jim Butler

[Hank Trent]

Re: Outpost III - AAR Thread

Yikes! Hank is suggesting abandoning first-person at campaign events?! :)

I'm saying do, or do not. No more try. If that means do not, so be it. :) This is 2007. EBUFU isn't new anymore. We know what "do" will get and what "try" will get. I've seen too many brand new people do an entire event without any modern talk, at the first event they attend where that's required, whether they're scrambling up and down hills or sitting around bored, doing something complex or simple, so it's not like this is some arcane skill that only a few will ever achieve after years of practice.

If some want the experience of no modern talk as a carpe eventum, then I wish there was a predictable way, other than luck, to put people together who will do it. If the same guidelines govern the entire event, how could someone (um, meaning me) have predicted they wanted to be in Riley's company so they could have gotten that same amazing experience, as opposed to one of the other companies where lapses were common? Vice versa, how could those who want to lapse know which companies would be perfectly okay with that and which would really prefer they didn't, when theoretically no one anywhere has to do any more than try?

Well, that's all I say, because this thread is really about Outpost more than future events, and that's about all I can think of to say anyway. :)

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Terry Sorchy]

Re: Outpost III - AAR Thread

To All,
First person at events is driven not by the event or where or when you are. It is driven on HOW you or your home unit or unit does first person at events all year long. If you attend events and your parent unit is primarily third person with the crowd and you talk in modern conversation then no matter when we portrayed the 89th or how much research you had your still going to do what your used to.
Case in point, all the federals at Outpost were OUTSTANDING. From what I heard from those that were there, Company A the ONV was in first person about 99% of the time ALL weekend. Thats what we do. At ALL events. It is where our comfort zone is.
Company B was about 75% with any modern talk kept very quiet.
Company C and D combined was less because thats just not what they do at most events.
You cant say friday night even though we do, to "go into firper" and expect it to be followed if your not "used to doing it on a regular basis".
What I would like to see is those that enjoyed the event look at it as a great cap on a great year and not start nitpicking it to death as happens to most events.
Did everyone cross all the T's and dot all the I's? No, because we were trying to put on an event as good as we knew how. Multitasking to the max was done by me for this. Pretty much creating a battalion from scratch. I have the phone bills to prove it. In a perfect world you would have all the firper you wanted, everything done excactly by the manual etc.. But we are human. Oh by the way if everyone did everything they were supposed to do during the war it would not have lasted for four years. So I feel like I am in good company.
On to Next Year Lads
Suckers to the Front!
Clear The Rails!
Terry Sorchy