AoA...Decisions, and why they are not so easy...

[mtodriscoll]

Re: AoA...Decisions, and why they are not so easy...

While I agree with the call on the weather...

What did ya'll think of the ride up the mountain on Friday night for the confederates. 10 guys + gear loaded into the bed of a pickup truck driving 60+ mph on a twisty mountain road in the dark. I know I was praying the whole way that a deer didn't jump out in front of us...

I wonder how many "liability" thoughts were given to that aspect of the event? Just curious. It was a great event, and other than the ride up, I was pleased with the logisitics. They did a great job keeping us watered - which was my main concern prior to leaving for the event.

Thanks again for a great time.

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Re: AoA...Decisions, and why they are not so easy...

A note that I sent to Dave via Email.
Mr. Pridgeon,
I understood and fully accepted your decision. I had a grand old time and eagerly await y'alls next adventure for us.
Logistically I feel a Superb job was preformed by your Staff especially the evacuation under the circumstances. Thank you for forcing the issue with some of us more hard headed Sons.
Perhaps finding a suitable area in the town for us to pitch camp or notifying us of permission of the owner of the drive in for us to stay in our vehicles would be food for future thought.
Once again thanks to you and the PSL for a great event. Please send my personal thanks to the land owner for sharing some of the most beautiful land I have ever had the privilege of playing on.
I would also like to thank those who helped get us down. Great Pards you truely are.
I remain Your Most Humble Servant,

Agreed...event was what I expected.

The call on the weather was VERY Dissapointing...what was more frustrating was being told to leave the site, and not at least be able to March out (understand - risks associated with slick Mtn. Roads/trucks).

Single most important lesson...the importance of an acceptable "Plan B/Contingency Plan"...what to do when the weather turns sour.

Paul B.

[OldState]

Re: AoA...Decisions, and why they are not so easy...

Single most important lesson...the importance of an acceptable "Plan B/Contingency Plan"...what to do when the weather turns sour.

Paul B.

Is shuttling people off the mountain in the event of bad weather not qualified as a "contingency plan"? What were you looking for them to do? What alternative/plan B/Contingency Plan would you offer to the event planners?

I'm just curious as to why some people felt surprised and disappointed by the event being called off and people transported off the mountain given the weather conditions.
Before I left my house I checked the forecast for the area. The forecast for Saturday night and Sunday was 50% chance of rain and lightening. Adding in the elevation, I surmised that the chances of the event being called off midway was quite high ... maybe 60% to 70%. That being said, I still went feeling that we could still get Friday night and Saturday in and that would be worth the trip. If it got called off I would go home or stay in a hotel on the way and do some touring on the way back depending on what the others in my group were up to.

So in effect I had made my own Plan B and C. I don't know, maybe I think to much about stuff.:thinking:

[BobDenton37thVA]

Re: AoA...Decisions, and why they are not so easy...

Folks,

I've read with interest the responses to my post; and am grateful to the folks who have shown considerable understanding. This will be my last post regarding the subject, and then I shall put this behind me.

Regarding contingency plans; in reality, we had warned everyone of the extremely high probability of rain prior to the event; like I've said before, if it's hot and humid off the mountain, it rains on the mountain every evening. If it's comfortable and dry off the mountain, it's cold up there. That's the simple truth.

When the first shower came through, I really hadn't given it much thought. I thought to myself, "ah well...typical weather up here at 4,000'...nothin' unusual". But then, the second wave came through. At that point, our generous landowner grabbed me and said with some serious anxiety, "Bob, you REALLY need to come see the radar images; it does NOT look good...". Dave and I went to his house to look at the radar; but I was resisting the whole notion of canceling tooth and nail. But when I saw what was coming, my jaw dropped. It was the worst possible scenario. Not a frontal passage, not an evening "orogenic lift" thundershower; this was the classic, stalled front "train" of T-storms. And the front had settled directly over us. We were in for it, there was no mistaking it.

Now bear in mind, we had carried canvas up the mountain in the "wagons", because we knew the possibility of rain or showers was high. It's always a high probability there this time of year. But this was different; very different. This was the extreme scenario for which the only contingency is GET OUT NOW. The temperature dropped to 57 degrees that night; if guys were soaked to the skin, hypothermia was a distinct possibility. And believe me, no matter how dry and secure someone might have been at the start of this series of storms, by 2:00 AM they would have been soaked. You see, the most severe of the storms didn't even arrive until we had everyone off the mountain. There were three of them, in sequential order, with smaller downpours in between (it rained almost continuously until dawn). Also, remember that the weather forecast had been for only a slight chance of thunderstorms through Sunday afternoon, so we knew we had a significant chance for them due to the topography. But no one could have predicted what would happen.

And finally, know that as disappointed as some of you may have been, no one, and I emphasize, no one, was more disappointed than Dave and me. My joy in this hobby has been to help provide you all with events like this and McDowell for these many years. My "pay-off" is to know you have had an enjoyable, substantive, and challenging experience. The most gratifying moment for me at each and every McDowell is when I get to say goodbye to all of you as you descend safely from the mountain on Sunday morning, and I get to see the smiles on your faces. That makes it all worth it...that's my "moment".

Be that as it may, I thank you all for your kind words of support.

Your servant, et c.,
Bob D.

[Prodical Reb]

Re: AoA...Decisions, and why they are not so easy...

...I'm just curious as to why some people felt surprised and disappointed by the event being called off and people transported off the mountain given the weather conditions.
Before I left my house I checked the forecast for the area. The forecast for Saturday night and Sunday was 50% chance of rain and lightening. Adding in the elevation, I surmised that the chances of the event being called off midway was quite high ... maybe 60% to 70%. That being said, I still went feeling that we could still get Friday night and Saturday in and that would be worth the trip......

I think some people not familiar w/weather patterns in the mountains and the predictabilty, or lack of, said weather as you are, there really don't know what they don't know.

It thundered all night long. the rain didn't end until morning. It wasn't a light shower either. with temps plunging into the 5os, the wind blowing making wind chill a factor, making it feel like 40 or less degrees it doesn't take long for hypothermia to take effect before one realizes what is happening to himself. Hopefully he'd have a vigilant pard who knows the signs!

Bob, you made the right call! Everybody went home to their loved ones. We all can live w/that!

[mattifatti]

Re: AoA...Decisions, and why they are not so easy...

There are not many events you can attend and get out of a full weekend what we got out of the day we spent in those mountains. I was fully satisified just finding out camp friday night and then sleeping near those earthworks...and that was just the beginning! I fully apprecaite everyone's effort to make this happen. Everything was superb from the organization to the leadership and on down to the men in the ranks.
I am also thankful for being given the opportunity to shuttle people off that hill. Mine was more of a selfish reason that starts with having a truck with an offroad package and living in a place in south jersey where the biggest hill we have is a sand dune off of Long Beach Island. I relished at the opportunity to do a little "woodsin" while at the same time offer my services to men/women who attended the event.
Looking forward to the next one!
Matt Kraybill

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Re: AoA...Decisions, and why they are not so easy...

Is shuttling people off the mountain in the event of bad weather not qualified as a "contingency plan"? What were you looking for them to do? What alternative/plan B/Contingency Plan would you offer to the event planners?

Proposed Contingency Plan: Understanding that the landowner was concerned about our welfare on his property, I realize that Bob and Dave had to get us down.

A proposed Plan B, as my Marylander in Grey noted above would have been to have a Barn, or area in the lowlands where folks could be allowed to set up Camp if they chose to do so.

I'm just curious as to why some people felt surprised and disappointed by the event being called off and people transported off the mountain given the weather conditions.

Really?? It didn't suprise you that the event was called off due to rain?? Boys and Girls ages 10-21, go camping in the rain every weekend and don't call off events due to it. It's called BEING PREPARED.

Before I left my house I checked the forecast for the area. The forecast for Saturday night and Sunday was 50% chance of rain and lightening. Adding in the elevation, I surmised that the chances of the event being called off midway was quite high ... maybe 60% to 70%. That being said, I still went feeling that we could still get Friday night and Saturday in and that would be worth the trip. If it got called off I would go home or stay in a hotel on the way and do some touring on the way back depending on what the others in my group were up to.

As to your comment about planning ahead, I'd say a good number of Confederates planned ahead (and heck probably a few Federals as well), packing in an extra woolen shirt/two, having shelter...etc. We had 5 fairly warm/dry folks under out rain-fly.

Having read and discussed with a number of folks that 30% chance of rain in the Mnts. of VA means 99% of rain in some form, we knew it was going to rain. Having wet/cold/tired/hungry people get on the road @ 2100 hrs. for as another fellow put it 'white-knuckled' drive through wet, windy mountain roads (in some areas being blotted out by fog/cloud cover), did not seem like a 'concerned' contingency.

So in effect I had made my own Plan B and C. I don't know, maybe I think to much about stuff.:thinking:

So in effect, I would have a hard time attending another one of these events knowing that the probability of it being 'called off' was say anything more than 5%.

Lightening/Rain is not a reason to call an event off...after all...wasn't part of the reason for NOT doing this event in the appropriate time season, because of the likelihood of the weather turning sour, and thereby the program being cancelled mid-event?? Just thinking what we gained here...sigh

Paul B.

[Hank Trent]

Re: AoA...Decisions, and why they are not so easy...

Having wet/cold/tired/hungry people get on the road @ 2100 hrs. for as another fellow put it 'white-knuckled' drive through wet, windy mountain roads (in some areas being blotted out by fog/cloud cover), did not seem like a 'concerned' contingency.

I wasn't at the event, and am glad of that, but the above situation is something I'm concerned about. Simply removing reenactors from the place where they thought they'd have permission to stay, and turning them out to fend for themselves, doesn't strike me as necessarily in their best interests, although it may be in the best interests of the organizers who no longer want to be legally liable for participants' safety on site.

Here's something I posted on another forum where we were discussing this:

My solution: unless there's clear and unavoidable danger like a forest fire or a rising river heading straight for the site, give participants the option of leaving or continuing, depending on what they feel is safest, and consolidate those who want to stay into groups as large as practical, so no one's left alone. Then let those who came to reenact, reenact.

(The Plan B that several have mentioned, of having a safer contingency place to camp on site like a barn, is also of course an excellent solution.)

We need some lawyerly input, but surely there's some way to minimize liability when allowing people to stay, by announcing the potential risks you're aware of (weather forecast, history of flooding in the area, etc.) and getting a verbal agreement from those staying that they're doing so with an awareness of the risks and were given the option of leaving.

I'm also curious what if any legal (or moral) responsibility an event organizer would have if a participant attended an event with the belief that he'd have a site to stay on until Sunday, had access to the site revoked through no fault of his own even though he asked to stay because he felt that leaving was unsafe, and was injured doing what he'd asked not to be required to do (such as drive in the dark in a storm). Would that truly be a liability-free decision for the organizer?

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[pfeiffer3964]

Re: AoA...Decisions, and why they are not so easy...

Did anyone raise with Bob or Dave their concerns with driving? If not, perhaps if someone had, additional accommodations could/would have been made. Maybe it wasn't really an oversight in the "contingency plan," but rather a non-issue because no one asked or raised a concern. I don't know the answer.

I know I wasn't looking forward to the drive. So we drove for a couple hours and laid over in a parking lot in Harrisonburg. No biggie.

P.S. Thanks to Bob, Dave and everyone else who turned out for a stellar event. Sore feet and all, it was quite enjoyable. THANKS!

[OldState]

Re: AoA...Decisions, and why they are not so easy...

Really?? It didn't suprise you that the event was called off due to rain?? Boys and Girls ages 10-21, go camping in the rain every weekend and don't call off events due to it. It's called BEING PREPARED.

Bad analogy. Camping in some low land scout camp or camping ground in the rain is quite different from weathering a mountain storm at 4000ft. I have backpacked all my life and in various areas of the country including the Shenandoah Valley. I have been stuck in mountain storms and they are VERY different. I own the best modern rain gear that money can buy and it didn't keep me dry during late July storm on Mt Madison NH at around 4400ft. The wind blew the rain up our coat and pant cuffs and soaked the lot of us inspite of our gear. The temperature was 70 when the storm started and 38 twenty minutes later. Many well prepared people have died of hypothermia hiking through summer storms in the Appalachian mountains. Google it.
I would have loved to have seen the condition of the "troops" after weathering a mountain storm for 8 hours with period gear. It would have been irresponsible for the planners to allow people to stay there and an exercise in naive stupidity for anyone to decide to stay on there own.

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: AoA...Decisions, and why they are not so easy...

To quote a man whom I respect:
Second Guessing when there were no injuries or life threatening harm makes the decision look wrong. Playing the Blame Game after the fact, criticizing and condemning a lack of decision or action when there were injuries or life threatening harm makes is another story.

Thread Closed.