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  • Henry's

    Hallo!

    This came up on another board, commenting on the event guidelines that the preferred firearms have their modern markings removed...

    'Curt, I am not familiar with the BATF laws but would just moving the serial numbers and/or manufacturer stamps to a inconspicuous spot by a professional gunsmith be considered illegal in most states on a Henry?'

    I am not a lawyer, but...

    At the Federal level:

    Sec. 5842. Identification of firearms

    (a) Identification of firearms other than destructive devices.:Each manufacturer and importer and anyone making a firearm shall identify each firearm, other than a destructive device, manufactured, imported, or made by a serial number which may not be readily removed, obliterated, or altered, the name of the manufacturer, importer, or maker, and such other identification as the Secretary may by regulations prescribe.


    States can vary, however, they typically mirror the Fed laws as a felony. Some make it a misdeanor on the first offense, a felony on the second.

    NUG, typically, state's language will mirror the "changed, altered, removed, or obliterated."

    I suppose where it can get legally hairy, is whether law enforcement and the courts interpret "changed" as removing the serial number from its location and stamping it anew under the barrel. (But since we are also taking about removing the maker's stamp, etc., it is kind of moot?)

    HOWEVER, under Federal law, and the several state laws I have read, this does NOT apply to our 19th and 18th century muzzleloaders.
    BUT, in cases of fire, etc., or theft recovery and identification, having some form of "ID" that shows a particular gun is yours, is helpful.

    As I often post... know the Federal laws, but also the state AND local laws where you live.

    Curt
    Curt Schmidt
    In gleichem Schritt und Tritt, Curt Schmidt

    -Hard and sharp as flint...secret, and self-contained, and solitary as an oyster.
    -Haplogroup R1b M343 (Subclade R1b1a2 M269)
    -Pointless Folksy Wisdom Mess, Oblio Lodge #1
    -Vastly Ignorant
    -Often incorrect, technically, historically, factually.

  • #2
    Re: Henry's

    Curt,

    This is a very good subject to discuss as the world of Title I firearms is totally different from that world of muzzleloaders. What is commonly accepted as defarbing will get you in a whole lot of trouble when applied to title I type firearms. The Title I firearms category includes revolvers and pistols (handguns), rifles, and shotguns which are non-suppressed, which do not have short barrels, and which only fire one round of ammunition for each action of the trigger mechanism. Reproduction Henrys as well as Spencers fall into this catagory.

    Manufacturer, import and serial number markings can be moved but it requires a variance (permission) from ATF to do so. Not just any ol' gunsmith can preform this work, it will require at a minimum a Class 1 FFL SOT 7 to do the work legally. A SOT 7 is a manufacturer.

    Unfortunately ATF regulations require that those markings be located in a conspicuous location so if the idea is to move them to hide them you can stop now, it is illegal. However if you are dead set on doing this just remember those guys in the suits don't have much of a sense of humor about regulation violations. Typically when caught by local or state law enforcement the cases are turned over to ATF for posecution under Federal regulation.
    Jim Kindred

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    • #3
      Re: Henry's

      FYI as well that in the Commonwealth of Virginia a muzzleloader is considered a firearm and according to the ATF and VA State Police (I called to make sure it wasn't a myth) it is illegal to move the serial number.
      Brandon English

      "There is many a boy here today who looks on war as all glory, but, boys, it is all hell."--William T. Sherman

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Henry's

        You may want to check with them again with regards to strictly muzzleloaders. Under Virginia Title 18.2-308.2:2 para G the description of a muzzleloader is identical to that in Federal regulations which classifies them as antique firearms. Antique firearms do not fall under the purview of the 1968 GCA. No serial number is required on such classified firearms. By Federal regulation a reproduction Henry or Spencer is NOT classified as an antique firearm and requires a serial number that cannot be moved without permission.

        The only reasons an imported muzzleloader will have a serial number are (1) the country where manufactured requires it and (2) import regulations. Once in the country a reproduction muzzeloader does not require a serial number.

        If you do call them again ask them to give you the page and paragraph number of the regulation that classifies antique muzzleloaders as a modern firearm.
        Jim Kindred

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Henry's

          Hallo!

          "If you do call them again ask them to give you the page and paragraph number of the regulation that classifies antique muzzleloaders as a modern firearm."

          NUG, do not expect local, state, and federal LEO's to actually know the
          law(s).

          NUG, expect to receive, have given, or even initially enforced, their opinion or belief.

          And as Herr Jim has shared, chapter and verse of the actual law trumps opinions and beliefs. Not that an LEO's opinions and belief will not keep one out from behind bars on an initial arrest.

          The incorrect and misinformation on both sides of the badge can be daunting.

          Curt
          Curt Schmidt
          In gleichem Schritt und Tritt, Curt Schmidt

          -Hard and sharp as flint...secret, and self-contained, and solitary as an oyster.
          -Haplogroup R1b M343 (Subclade R1b1a2 M269)
          -Pointless Folksy Wisdom Mess, Oblio Lodge #1
          -Vastly Ignorant
          -Often incorrect, technically, historically, factually.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Henry's

            Originally posted by Curt-Heinrich Schmidt View Post
            NUG, do not expect local, state, and federal LEO's to actually know the
            law(s).
            When it comes to gun laws few in LE other than those ATF agents that deal directly with firearms regulations on a daily basis know the regulations. Strange as it may seem issues dealing directly with state or federal firearms regulations rarely come up on a daily basis as opposed to the normal daily trials and tribulations that an officer will deal with. Believe it or not even ATF agents can be ignorant of their own regulations because of the particular field in ATF that they work. It is only the firearms inspectors that truly know the regulations and those are the ones the field agents turn to for a "reading" on a particular issue.

            When it comes to local and state law enforcement knowing the regulations it is all but a disaster. Their working knowledge is limited at best in most cases. Years ago I was all but arrested by a deputy sheriff who was dead set on his opinion that it was illegal for a private citizen to own machine guns even with me showing him the Federal paperwork with the firearm's serial number on it. It was not until after the ass chewing he received from the high sheriff that he understood the error of his ways. I am sure after that "education" the mistake was not repeated.

            I am not saying local and state law enforcement is stupid only that their exposure to these regulations is normally limited. When you ask them a question about firearm regulations it is best to ask the section directly responsible for those regulations as opposed to the person who just happens to answer the phone when you call.

            If anyone has questions about Federal regulations they are posted on the ATF's website here for all to see - http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pu...3004/index.htm

            State Laws and Regulations here - http://www.atf.gov/firearms/statelaw...tion/index.htm

            Unless the rules have changed you can also request a free hard copy of those regulations from ATF without being a dealer.
            Jim Kindred

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Henry's

              Henry users order your blank ammunition from www.joeswansonsmotionpictureblanks.com.

              He sells them for $60 per 100 rounds. He's a good guy to work with and has been very helpful to me. Tell him Matt Woodburn sent you.
              Matt Woodburn
              Retired Big Bug
              WIG/GHTI
              Hiram Lodge #7, F&AM, Franklin, TN
              "There is a fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."

              Comment

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