AAR Bummers

[majdoc]

Re: AAR Bummers

1st I'll say I had a great time.
The interaction with the civilians was great.
I was with D Co Ga. Malitia. After loading my rifle friday night them a 2+ mile walk up hill(To slow a march for me) our Capt falling in a big hole on the road, we bedded down on a rock pile for the rest of the night.
At 0500 in the am we got up eat and waited(the army does that) then marched another mile or two and prceded to do nothing the rest of the day but watch. Mid after noon back to another rock pile. We move out about sundown and did I mention we st around for an hr. Then back to the rock pile.
Since I did have family as refugee I just decided to dessert. Walked through to Militia lines(In evening light did not sneeked around then walked my way past I Yankee patrol that told me they liked my audacity and did not have the heart to shot me.
The rest of the time I spent at one of the cabins with my family.
The Yankess did a bang up job of tearing and burning the cabin down.(It is the ono I helped build) I can't figure out way a guy took a 500 dollar rife and try a punch boards out.
I did hide my rifle a accoutiments up n the tree and all I can say is the Yankees found my coots but the rifle just under it was never found lousy searches I thoungt. I did follow the unit and talked them out of my coots though.
Thanks again. I'll march with the militia or Yankees at an event like this any time.
Oh before I forget. Thanks to the Mo. boys who allowed me to fall in with them. I met many new reenactors/friends.\
Doc Bruce.

[mturk64]

Re: AAR Bummers

Bummers sucked...and I think that that was part of the fun.

As a member of the foraging party for the 54th Ohio, I did not make it through Saturday night. Friday night's night movement was a bit of a blast...who came up with the idea of assaulting up hill on line in the dark? After an hour or so on picket, I actually found my party in the dark--my apologies to the one soldier that I stepped on in the middle of the night, as well as to the one that I smashed with my rifle butt.

Saturday, we did the 'billy goat' trail--bitching, as soldiers will, about what a**hole was in front; climbed a cliff in brogans--assisting several men who, in all honesty, ought not have been there in the first place; found water (not enough) at the top of the ridge and shared when we could; went down the other side of the ridge, and watched the wheels fall off.

Regarding Craig's comment "I found numerous men had stayed behind, troubled by foot problems and other injuries, dehydration, etc.", I must chime in. These men--FOR THE MOST PART--were not suffering from injuries...they were suffering from a lack of leadership. Officers who disappeared, NCOs who wouldn't make decisions. One private says one thing, and another says another, and no one tells them to shut up and move. We stayed on the bottom of the hill, not because we were soft, but because we were poorly served by our chain of command. The lunatics, as they say, took over the asylum.

We struck out from the rest of 2nd Div and meandered around the countryside for a while--the inclusion of iodine tablets at a squad level would have helped a lot at this point--looking a our one map far too infrequently; came across a party of escaped prisoners (who were FANTASTIC in their 1st person impressions); I personally found a bushel of corn, which saved our day; found another foraging party, who were quite as lost as we were, with whom we traded corn for sweet-potatoes; and eventually came out on Dripping Rock Road at 4PM or so. At this point--being back where we started, but having no idea where the rest of 2nd Div was, we bailed.

As for my impression of the event, I hated it and I loved it at the same time...for 36 hours, I felt like a soldier in Gen'l Sherman's army. I was lost, I was thirsty, I was hungry...I aided other soldiers who were in distress, I foraged and found food. I bitched--as soldiers will--about our leaders...and will continue to do so. I applaud the efforts of the event organizers; I would recommend a few modifications (such as iodine tabs) for future events.

Marc Turk
a.k.a Pvt. Alexander Lehman
54th Ohio

[ktulu983]

Re: AAR Bummers

Mr Turk you should have stucked it out! I was with the party next to yours and yes going back up that incredibly steep hill was a pain in the rear but within a half hour Black Joe had us with a homestead where pickings were good and the event started to really pick up. When you were bailing at 4pm we were diving up a superd array of rations. Never quit man never quit!

[SCTiger]

Re: AAR Bummers

I was going to type up a lengthy AAR, but I will reserve my experiences for the ones who stayed and participated and just state "You had to be there." I was the disguised Confederate Chaplain home on furlough with Brian McGarrahan, we were really two Confederate Infantry deserters and we tried to avoid the Militia and the Federals, the Texas Cavalry did the best job tactically, they had us hiding everywhere.

I am sorry I did not get to meet everyone again, for the ones we did interact with thanks for the experience. To the event organizers and staff, it was a monumental event and I appreciate your hard work. We all faced hardships but the experience was an improvement.

[mturk64]

Re: AAR Bummers

Mr Turk you should have stucked it out! I was with the party next to yours and yes going back up that incredibly steep hill was a pain in the rear but within a half hour Black Joe had us with a homestead where pickings were good and the event started to really pick up. When you were bailing at 4pm we were diving up a superd array of rations. Never quit man never quit!

NO DOUBT. We should have--in hindsight--stuck closer to Joe. We didn't actively decide to quit...we decided to forage on our own, and got badly lost. When we came out on Dripping Rock Rd, though, having no idea and not nearly enough daylight to track down the rest of the Division, we were done.

[thad gallagher]

Re: AAR Bummers

Well, I for one enjoyed the hell out of it. It was perhaps one of the best immersions I have participated in in the aspect of not knowing what laid ahead, if we would find food, and if there would be water.

In reading the books on the list that was put out, the foragers did not find food every day. If you found it great, if not, that's part of the game. They had the same problems. After all, I have never heard of anyone starving to death in less than 48 hours. Sure it can make you grumpy and uncomfortable, but you get to test what you are really made of that point. There is a lot of talk of being "hardcore" or the authentic "real" experience. There it was- no food.

We did get lost, we recovered, and got back on course. I was with the 97th Indiana, Craddock's Moutain Goats. We did find a few sweet potatoes and some corn. Sure it was no feast, but it was something. The travel was hard, but we made it through. The event hosts were up front and told us months ago to get ready for the terrain, that it would be rough.

As for the complaints of not seeing Rebs, well, we were in foraging parties. The 'old fellas' did not want to make contact. They were outnumbered and just looking for food. The foragers ran most of the time. How often did the real troops not see anybody for days on end. This was never sold as a powder burning event. It was a foraging event, not a tactical. I would guess this is where the confusion/misunderstanding of what to expect came in.

We did get stampeded by the calvary, taken prisoner, and treated as such. It was an interesting feeling to say the least. Full of rage and helplessness all at the same time. We were treated decently once the calvary and militia handed us over to the local "police force", I forget what they were really called. We stayed as prisoners, and we schemed, plotted, and prepared. I spent most of my time coming up with reasons to go and visit my gear and grab a couple more rounds for my spencer to shove in my pockets, just in case. We spent the evening and night under guard having some good interactions with our guards, and seeing how far we could push things with them. We were able to steal the "deth to foragers" sign and do some rewording. It was something to do.

A highlight was when our comrades came over the works and pushed the militia. Yelling and cheering them on and anticipating a possible liberation. This gave us our chance to rush our guards and make for our weapons. The seeminlgy look of confusion on the militia caught in the middle was priceless.

In the end, we were cold at times, hungry, thirsty, tired, sore, angry, and bored. Pretty much all the emotions I have read about in numerous accounts. To me, that is what matters. I may have felt and slight glimpse of what they had felt. I know that I am no worse for wear after the weekend. Yes, in the regards of the "it sucked" yes it did, and for all the right reasons. Doesn't get much more authentic than that. We are reenacting a war, not a tea party.

The only question I would raise is, did they not know the road we were supposed to travel on was flooded? This seemed to be what sent things off track. If was known ahead of time, hopefully contingencies would have been in place. The forageers stuck to main roads and did not go cross country too much, the safety of your regiment was closer that way.

Thanks to all the staff for your hard work. I had a great experience, and I would come back down for that without hesitation. Thanks to our Officer and Sgts. They did a great job and kept everyone up and going.

I made some great new friends, saw some old ones, and got to meet people I have only spoken with on the forums.

"I know I made a good choice in you Johnny Lloyd"

[jwoodli]

Re: AAR Bummers

I had a great time wandering around searching for Yankees on what I considered some beautiful Georgia countryside, albeit rocky, but certainly no mountains. I hated to hear that some of the Feds got lost.
As part of the local defense group/police force/bushwackers/Tussahaw Rangers (sic), I thoroughly enjoyed tramping around off trail in the dark on Friday taking pop shots at the Fed column on the river road, to the long hike over to some lost militia where we were sure we would encounter foragers (but didn't 'cause they were 'lost'), to the hours spent on prison detail. That was a lot of fun. I thought we let the prisoners get a bit too bold and casual, not to mention having certain comforts I would have preferred for myself (tobacco, peaches, and the cooking service of some fine citizens). My only regret was that I wasn't there to get rushed by them.

[jones56ga]

Re: AAR Bummers

Gents,
I had the time of my reenacting life, acting as the 2nd Lt. for Co. B, 11th Ga militia. We marched , dug in, waited, moved, dug in, waited, guarded the roads, and we never saw a Yankee, except for prisoners, and the ones who kicked our asses. Just like the real deal. Thank you, from the bottom of my heart, to the men of Co. B who stuck with me. If you didn't have a good time at Bummers, it was your fault.

[Rmhisteach]

Re: AAR Bummers

I have not fully processed this event yet , however I will chime in with a thought or two .

This event did what we say is one of the reasons that we do this, That is to gain a better appreciation and respect for those soliders who went through all of these trials to defend family friends and country.

Boys of the 63rd Ill. You performed like veterans I am very proud of each of you! Even the deserters!

[Jeremy Bevard]

93rd Illinois Billy Goats

Well here we go with my AAR. The trouble with AAR’s is the are written while emotions are perhaps still raw, events are still being processed and others read between the lines and make assumptions about others based on this. Such is life and it makes for interesting reading.

First, I am proud of everything that Sgt Roscoe and I did this weekend. I am even prouder of the men that we commanded. Never one time did anyone complain, throw their hands up, say the word mutiny, or say anything along the lines of refusing to go any further (sorry, but I heard these things in other parties earlier in the day Saturday). We said get up they did, we said time to move they did, we needed a detail someone volunteered, and we needed scouts someone volunteered. Men in the 93rd Illinois “billy goats” you made this event successful for me. Thank you once again for your hard work, dedication and trust. This event I truly felt the burden and responsibility of having command of men. I thank you and the event organizers for giving that feeling to me.

After thinking and discussing the event during the 14 hour drive home I decided I would not change a single thing that happened. Our party truly received the most realistic forage party experience we ever could have. If the event ran perfectly planned our party would have missed out on the best period experience ever.

The 93rd Il left camp on Friday in a column, camped in a large group. Saturday we moved out in a column. We drank from a creek and were then away from the main body. We struck out on our own and foraged on the land. We moved by ourselves making our own decisions and surviving. We experienced hardship, camaraderie, foraging for food, civilian interaction, spur of the moment decision making, made contact with the militia and then marched out with a column. Hell, sounds like everything I have read a foraging party would have experience. So again, I would not change a thing.

The 93rd Illinois Billy Goats story will be posted soon.

[TheRuins]

Re: AAR Bummers

I was with the 4th Iowa (Independent Rifles) and like all events this one had things that went wrong that we had to adapt to, but I had a good time. I think I remember someone posting before the event to "embrace the suck" Well we did and I come out of this event with a better understanding of what foraging parties could have possibly gone through such as being lost, no water, no food, not trusting the locals, and worrying about CS Cav and local militia troops. I maybe fired 4 rounds out of my musket all weekend which is a first because I can get trigger happy at times and enjoyed it. The most fun of this event was being with my pards and enduring the tasks thrown at us together as a team. I would also like to thank the event organizers because I know how hard it is to run an event and to put so much hard work into it so that all of the rest of us can have fun and enjoy their labors.

I agree. I too was part of the 4th Iowa and pretty much embraced the suck.

A few of my own observations: Emotions I experienced during the event--Fear, anger, boredom, fatigue, thirst, hunger, lust, concern, and resignation.

I thought the whole experience typified a great immersion experience--

What little interaction with civilians was great. The 4th Iowa helped initiate the the looting and thence torching of a cabin. The whole scene I think was to be best described as frenetic: civilians yelling at soldiers, soldiers searching personal belongings an finding stuff, officers attempting to restore order, laughter, mocking, and animosity that was very thick. The whole spectacle I thought was pretty much resembled how a lot of foraging activities went.

I heard some of complaints about the lack of interaction with the civilians or the Confed militia--well, I imagine a lot of foraging parties were not as lucky as others in acquiring food, and/or getting the opportunity for some pillaging. I fired more shots to clear my weapon then in anger. Oho well, I was over "burning powder" a long, long time ago.

My experience was one of extremes--physically and mentally I was miserable much of the weekend, which had a lot to do with access to food, water, command decisions and just really horrible circumstances. But on the other hand, we did not go completely hungry or were without water for too, too long. Our company eventually had opportunities (and took them) to improve morale and our own circumstances. One of the best experiences was having to take care of one of our own who was really struggling at one point and picking up another straggler who was separated (and arguably abandoned) by his company. I also did a lot of the cooking for the company, which I really enjoyed and helped pass the time and kill some of the boredom.

Saturday night we dined with a fine fare of beans with sweet potatoes, pork, corn. We also drank coffee with milk and honey, found a small, small bottle of spirits, and set up a camp mess display complete with a small table and some china. Things did get better thanks to the fact that we worked together as a company, and Lil' Sherm insisting that we endure 1 hour of hell to get to the land of exploding rocks and Coffee with milk and honey.

And we also found out that some rocks in Georgia do explode. I made some new friends and realized that I had some great pards and co. commander, whom I would follow to hell and back.

I think too many look at particular moments in the weekend to make their decision whether or not it was worth the effort or attendance, and do not take into account the bigger picture contextually; the whole point was an "immersion" experience at some level. For me personally, this experience was getting the proverbial bang out of the buck.

In sum, in my 20+ years of reenacting, this experience ranks pretty high as one of the best.

CL

[the other nathan]

Dear Mr. Graber:

Dear Mr. Graber:

I do not take too kindly to the words of "wisdom" that you shared with those complaining. I think that you may be missing the point.

I was not going to post on this event because frankly pissing and moaning is just as worthless as brown nosing posts. I am posting because I feel that the record needs to be set straight.

You said, "Before you go chewing on your hat and cursing up a storm at the folks that put this event on, you need to find out everything that happened."
And then you went on immediately to say, "One thing that I noted over the weekend from a lot of the complainers was that a lot of the guys I noticed seem to be the sort that were not cut out for this side of the hobby."

So let me give you and those who were unable to attend some of the details.
My company was in the 3rd Division. We had a 16 yr old boy, and some grown men, myself (being 22 years of age), and a 60+ year old SF veteran who I would wager could run circles around you all day long. No one in my company was out of shape and many of them were BGR or Piney Woods participants. Now I do not recall seeing you at Piney Woods, but I did not meet everyone. In case you weren't there, it was hard marching of about 7 to 8 miles a day up and down hills etc. Compared to Piney Woods, this event was cake. Therefore, I animately disagree with your assertion that us "complainers" are not cut out for "this side of the hobby" - what ever you think that means.

Second, you said, "Maybe you would feel a little better at something a little more mainstream where you can have your opportunities to burn powder and have more of the comforts that you seek."
Well, sir. As you were not in my foraging party and not in the 3rd Division I would like to again impart some of the details as to the complaints.
1)Water (We had 1.5 canteens from 8:30am to 5:30pm; men became dehydrated and were cramping due to dehydration. By the time we reached the top of the final hill where we were to camp, 90% of my party was out of water and the rest had only swallows that they are offering to the worst off in the division.)
2)Food (We were issued bacon on Fri. night, half of it was then recalled to be issued to 1st Division; we were promised that there was food to be found, but we did not find any until after 5pm Saturday. Additionally, I am a young guy and I have hiked through the Wind River Mountian range, I have experience hiking and climbing mountains, but I could feel my inability to gain proper footing increasing severely at about 2pm due to decreasing energy from the lack of food.)
3)Dangerous terrain (we were led on a goat trail, traversing a hillside and eventually scaling a cliff. I watched many men slip on the loose trail cover and with the poor footing and steep grades, it is a wonder that no one was seriously hurt.)
4)Guide (we were led up a hill that we should not have gone up, and then we led down a road, only for the guide to become lost, lose his radio, and proceed to lose a whole foraging party)
5)We felt swindled (we expected marching, we expected hunger, we expected to look for food without finding; however, we expected the event staff to have enough water for the safety of the men. We expected to be pillaging civilians for food, not performing an easter egg hunt up hills that had no food. We did not get what we paid for.)

These were the complaints of the men. Sufficed into two: poor CONTINGENCY planing and poor guide.

The men were not complaining about the lack of a powder burner as you derogatorily implied. And the creature comforts that we sought were not a soft air mattress, a cooler of beer, a ball with pretty ladies, or even a funnel cake stand. Instead our requests were simple: Know where you are leading us, and please do not let us run out of water.

I will assert that once we were found on Saturday night, we were brought food (a yam, ear of corn, and apple per person) and water. The camp was exhausted and was silent by 7pm. I woke up at 9pm and the camp was still quite and most of the fires had burned down, showing that the camp was dead from hunger and exhaustion. We were happy for the food and water and the arrangements made by the staff to try and care for the lost brigade of "Uncle Billy's Goats."

I would like to personally thank Herb Coats for all he did to help in this effort.

Respectfully yours,
Nathan

P.S. We are all a bunch of Farbs. Yeah they were hungry and tired etc. like I may have been on Saturday, but nothing I can do will ever compare to what they went through. Thinking that I am a Campaigner, Hardcore, Authentic is only blinding myself from the reality of the hell the boys of that time had to endure.




Dear event staff:
I understand that all did not go according to plan. I was wondering if you could share what went wrong, what was supposed to happen, or even what was learned for this event.
I do appreciate the trouble that you went to to put this event on; most of the complaining was done in a fir-per and ultimately the lot of us enjoyed ourselves on Sunday.

Respectfully yours,
Nathan

Y'all talk all this talk about wanting to be like the soldiers of old. To experience what they experienced and live the life that they lived. I tell you the truth when I say that this past weekend was as close as you are ever going to get to truely living the life that they did. In my opinion, this was truely an authentic experience. The average soldier was hungry, thirsty, tired and often times pissed at the folks who were in command. They were made to deal with the most difficult of challenges and rose to the occasion. I'm sorry that most of you weekend warriors didn't get to burn enough powder or forage enough food to keep you full at all times. The true soldiers often times never experienced those things. Those of you that were or are in the military and are in front line/grunt units know what I mean.

Personally I was in the militia company so I didn't see a lot of the stuff from the Federal side. We too had shortages of water and food because all of those things had to be trucked out to the Federal companies that were out there. I hate that a lot of you had a bad time, and maybe some things could have been handled differently, but knowing the folks that put this on, I am confident that they had all things accounted for. Before you go chewing on your hat and cursing up a storm at the folks that put this event on, you need to find out everything that happened. One thing that I noted over the weekend from a lot of the complainers was that a lot of the guys I noticed seem to be the sort that were not cut out for this side of the hobby. As the great Mr. Rideout used to say, "Know your lane." Some of y'all may not be cut out for this sort of thing. Maybe you would feel a little better at something a little more mainstream where you can have your opportunities to burn powder and have more of the comforts that you seek.



Casey Graber
Co. A 11th GA Militia

[Korey_87]

Re: AAR Bummers

I believe this event turned out amazing! I will not trouble you with the events of Friday night and Saturday afternoon as they have already been posted. I was with the 63rd Illinois under Lt. Rod Miller. Saturday sucked, but that is what made it great! We marched with little food or water but I thoroughly enjoyed the experience along with cursing the army for its stubbornness in reading directions and leading the men. I don’t want to place blame on anyone as I do not know what happened. I just know that I was a lowly private and all I knew was to blame my superiors. Saturday night is when my story takes a different turn from 3rd division.

Boys of the 63rd Ill. You performed like veterans I am very proud of each of you! Even the deserters!

I do not consider us deserters, just advantageous of the circumstances. When we arrived at the top of the mountain and learned we would be sleeping there with veggies for dinner we were a bit upset. We heard through various discussions that a civilian camp was 1 to 1.5 miles down the road. We knew that they had meat and real food. One of our boys talked to our superiors and confirmed this rumor. He was then able to secure a map of the area. We soon took off through the woods. It was an easy march downhill and we arrived at a nice wagon before nightfall. It was stated:

Before too long four or five other men came up. We thought they were part of the group that had just left but we found out later that these had gone off on their own. They were obviously very hungry also so we shared the dinner we had left. We told both groups of Yankees that if they hadn't been so polite and meek that our sharing would have been a different story. As these men finished eating, we heard the cavalry coming down the road and they went running! (It turns out that the men on horses were actually looking for fellows from the Union Army. They brought a flag of truce but the men wouldn't come out. We yelled through the woods that maybe the cavalry men should invoke Howell Cobb, so the next thing we heard was “Howell Cobb could eat an entire chicken.” They used the magic sentence when someone had to break from immersion during the event. These men and the group from earlier, I believe they were the 63rd Illinois, were allowed to camp across from us for the night. They disappeared before the sun came up.)

We were scared out of our pants when we saw the cavalry trotting down the road. They made contact after some suspenseful moments and filled us in on what was going on. We meet up with the 93rd Illinois and bunkered with them for the night. We ate the lovely cabbage and chicken soup along with ham and peaches for dinner. It was a lovely night. We then woke up before dawn and left at first light for the civilian camp down the road. These southern sympathizers deserved nothing but dirt and were treated to such. We soon heard the bugle calls and knew it was time to leave. The rest of the story has been told and I will not retell it.
I enjoyed the small engagement with the cavalry while moving with the 93rd. Falling in with the 2nd division was also advantageous as we now had ample support against the militia. We soon moved on through Georgia away from the scum militia towards Savannah!
We did not desert the Union army and we did not desert the great state of Illinois. We simple pillaged and plundered our way through the rocky Georgia landscape :tounge_sm Hats off to the 63rd and 93rd. (Thanks for not court marshalling all of us)

Korey Bawden

Benjamin Bawden
63rd Illinois
River Rats Mess

[dwar]

Re: AAR Bummers

Being a part of the 2nd Division, I would say the event needed a little more planning as in a plan B. With the road along the river gone due to 4 ft of water over it in spots was not in the plan. Yes, a soldier would have encountered hard times. I for one did not think the water on top of the hill after the 2.5 mile hike along the hill to the east of the river and the cliffs was enough for the division (26 Gal). I made maps for 36 years. The map was Ok but a lot of people don’t know how to read them. I looked at it a few times but others toned me out. Privates need to keep the mouth shut. I had a good time and a bad time. Would I do it again, most likely, but I will not drive for 18 hrs to do it. New York to Georgia is a hall. I met some good people, and I thank them. Some one said in a post we need GPS in the future. A soldier in 1864 did not have it. Maybe a compass would be the correct item. I’m not a big complainer. You can never be totally prepared. So Thank You 54th Ohio for your friend ship and I hope to see you again. 2nd Division Commander is a good fellow.

[Old Reb]

Re: AAR Bummers

I may write an AAR about rocks and being lost and such, but not now ‘cause I ain’t in no blowviating mood. I am in the hats off and praise mood. Having dipped my toes in the event planning business at BGR and IPW I want to thank the Armory Guard and Mess #1 for being stupid enough to put on Bummers and putting up with all that goes into it and goes into it while things are unfolding. They did a heck of a job. I want to especially praise young Jordan ‘cause rumor has it, much of the dreaming up things came from him. Being that he is a young lad he will be one of those that carries on the dreaming up misery for folks long after I am gone and thus he is high on my list. I also praise Captain Herb for tamping down boo birds early and actually drawing them to the event. Y’all did a fine job. That things didn’t work out exactly as planned goes under the category “ shit happens.” I have always thought that being miserable, or scared, or hungry, or thirsty, or lost or finding leaders lacking was true to form for soldiering. Such is the state of a soldiers lot, be it now or then. Special praise goes to the ladies at the cabin that fed us and wished us well on our stumbling arrival after being lost from our proposed destination. The next time I saw them as we were marching out was after the Yankees stole from them and burned their cabin. Just a side note to yankee prisoners, had it not been for the majors orders to bring y’all back in one piece, me and my boys would have gladly left y’all dead for the hogs to root. But my biggest praise and such praise don’t come from me without the truth in my heart when I give it, would be for the three ladies that marched out with us Sunday. They were carrying more on their backs and in their hands than any soldier I saw. One was carrying a baby. They had been run off by the Yankees and when they sought shelter with another group of civilians, they was run off from there because they didn’t fit into “their scenario.” For what it is worth, they were the toughest women that I have ever met and probably tougher than many of the men at the event. They would have been the pioneer women like my great great grandmother and the ones that helped tame the frontier and sent their men folks off to war. I don’t know if I will ever see those three brave and hardy women again, but when I say y’all was honorary Texas Ground Hornets, it is said as a term of extreme respect.