infantry uniform guidlines

[sam H]

So the event guidlines call for the infantry company to be wearing mainly civilian clothing. However I was discussing the topic with a few others and they were under the assumption that these soldiers would have returned from their 30 day furlough in their original militia uniforms. These would have been issued to them in the fall at the beginning of the 6 month enlistments. The 57th Georigia was established in the spring of 62 but was formed from 10 different militia companys. Almost all of those companies were outfitted in uniforms before their departure to Savannah. Is their any evidence, one way or the other, on what they would have been wearing during the invasion of Kentucky?

[coastaltrash]

Re: infantry uniform guidlines

Sam,
After the Invasion of Kentucky, if the 57th was like anyone else on the march, were in pretty poor shape when they got back. So I doubt there was anything to send back home after that trip.

[Rob Murray]

Re: infantry uniform guidlines

Sam,

Thank you for your assumptions. They are just that.

The author of the work on this unit (Scott Walker) published nothing definitive on what this unit was wearing this early in the war. After doing my own research and with the helpful suggestions of others and after reviewing unique images of the area, the event team made the decision to go with these guide lines.

If you or anyone else can tell us definitively, what these boys were wearing, we would love to hear it. When and if that time comes, if possible, we will change the guide lines. Barring that, let’s not discuss what they MIGHT have been wearing.

Kindest regards.

[Iceman]

Re: infantry uniform guidlines

The question isn't about what shape they (the 57th GA) were in at the conclusion of the invasion, but when they stepped off. Reading the book on the 57th, All Hell's Broke Loose in Georgia, the companies that made up the 57th came from those companies that were doing State service in Savannah. Further, all but one company (Co. A) came from rich, wealthy, prosperous parts of Georgia that were centers of fabric and cloth manufacture. The State of GA published reg's for it's State troops. Surviving uniforms from these early companies and regiments were cadet gray/blue-gray in color. If the companies that made up the 57th GA were first known as the 2nd GA, and if other State regiments of infantry both above and below the 2nd Reg't were wearing blue-gray/cadet gray uniforms, it would beg to argue that the 2nd - later the 57th - were also wearing finely made, GA produced blue-gray/cadet uniforms.

Before stepping off with Kirby Smith, the 57th were kicking it in camp and riding around in trains and wagons. Marching with K. Smith were their first taste of marching on campaign, loaded down with knapsacks and gear.

If the impression for this event is the start of the campaign with K. Smith, and not the final days of it, then Sam's question of whether or not the 57th GA were wearing GA State uniforms is valid and I believe justifiable. The only reason I can see not embracing this argument that the 57th were wearing GA State uniforms in Aug. of '62 is because it will require those who want to be a part of this event to invest into a specialized uniform, which will drive numbers down. Therefore, it's easier to tell guys to wear civilian clothing rather than to create GA specific impressions. And I'm not saying this because it's something that I'm advocating, because I don't plan on being able to even go to this event, so I have no interest in this argument other than what history vs. hobby says the impression should be.

[sam H]

Re: infantry uniform guidlines

Sorry if I was stepping on anyones toes. Just seeing if anyone out there had more information on what they were wearing. Seems like its a tricky impression to pull off. But if the event guidlines call for civilian attire then that is what I will stick to.

[Iceman]

Re: infantry uniform guidlines

"let’s not discuss what they MIGHT have been wearing."

We can't discuss what they were wearing, but participants are supposed to wear what you suppose they MIGHT have been wearing? You even said that there's "nothing definitive on what this unit was wearing." But yet, those who go are to take the guidelines at face value that, although there's nothing that specifically says what they were wearing, to make the argument that the 57th could have been wearing GA State manufactured uniforms is out of line unless definitive evidence can be found? I feel that it's just the opposite. There's nothing to suggest that GA State troops were wearing civilian, and multiple sources to suggest that these soldiers - volunteering as early as they did in the war - would have had on GA State produced uniforms.

[sam H]

Re: infantry uniform guidlines

That was another thing. I could understand more civilian clothing towards the end of the invasion of kentucky but we are representing the first days of it. Georgia regulations uniforms would not be too bad of an assumption. If their is no definitive evidence on what they were wearing then why not discuss it here?

[coastaltrash]

Re: infantry uniform guidlines

Nic,
The point I was making about any post invasion descriptions need to be approached with caution, considering what shape they would have been. I understand the event is intended to be a pre invasion event.

I say this, because I say it a lot. If there are issues you have with folks standards and intentions on enforcing standards that are strict, but not down right ridiculous, then I suggest hosting your own events.

I've got no dog in this fight, I won't be there. I'll be standing on a set of stairs at a church, dressed in a tux and being a groomsman for a great friend, far far away from the wagons. I tossed my $0.02 in on this discussion because as an organizer it boils down to doing it as a fair representation or doing it to where only 3 people are willing to dump the money to go. With at least 5 days of vacation (paid or unpaid) taken up to go to this, some people's limits of real life may have been reached.

Sam,
I know a lot of guys who research Georgia troops, spent a lot of time in the archives for Backwaters, and can't turn up this information you are looking for for this event. And the book on the 57th is not a good work in my opinion.

[Old Reb]

Re: infantry uniform guidlines

As a retired event organizer, I know the trouble people with their concept of very specialized impressions can be to those trying to draw people to their event. Often, the people trying to stir the pot have no intention of attending or have some very specific impression that is more of a brain fart and the results is they try to pollute the air for others. I do know, in dealing with such persons in the past, I contacted my attorney who advised me that certain liabilities were involved when a person maliciously attacks ones endeavors or does anything to harm the reputation of those putting on such an event. If anyone would like the name of my attorney, send me a pm. I will gladly furnish it! Of course, it is probably best to let that person to continue having their dream farts as long as they aren't in the room with you.

[sam H]

Re: infantry uniform guidlines

Like I said earlier. I was not trying to step on anyones toes or raise any hairs. I plan on attending this event and was just asking a question on a possibility of uniforms. No ones is stirring the pot here in my opinion. Just sharing notes on research. I have already been informed to redirect any questions to the listserver for the event so from now on I will do so. My apologies.

[Spinster]

Re: infantry uniform guidlines

Thank you My Friends, and especially the fine young man who made a phone call at this late hour,

In the preceeding months, a large number of men have delved in various big boy libraries looking for this information. As an event team for In The Van, the choice was a hard call to make, but certainly an interesting one.

Since we have an event concept here that requires more than moving men from point A to point B (a big challenge in itself), and doing that for a week (an even bigger challenge) we chose to make the hard decision rather than the easy one.

Tom Yearby taught us how to do a number of things in event leadership. We have looked to him and to others who have put on successful long events, and have taken those lessons to heart.

I tried to communicate something on this thread: http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/...ad.php?t=25064 As a Southern woman 'of a certain age' , I often fail to speak as directly as I should.

Obviously I failed to state plainly: If you are truely interested in being a part of this event and have a question, write the cognizant organizer. It may take a good while, as each of us is off-grid for days at a time, but you will get an answer. It may or may not be the answer you want. We set up the list-server in order to facilitate event information, and its the only place we will monitor.

Further, let me state here plainly and clearly: Reading is Fundamental. So is Listening. The ability to absorb pre-event material, to read, listen, and follow directions will be vital for all participants. For most here, proximity to loaded wagons and heavy teams is a new thing. This is not a kiddie ride.

This event is a monumental undertaking. The logistics require a great deal of time on task. Eight people spent the long weekend last month on event logistics. This coming weekend nearly twenty will be in Kentucky for wagon school. Waiting next is a wagon that needs rebuilding, and multiple trailer loads of teams and wagons to come up from Texas to be trained together. We are blessed to have a deep well of experience at hand, and generous teachers, including two men who retraced the Lewis and Clark route by wagon. In addition to putting on an event, we intend to emerge from it with an additional group of folks with a common 19th century skill-wagon driving.

If you are hearty enough and life will let you--come on.

For those with too many life demands--bless you, each of us makes hard choices, and we wish you joy in yours.

For those who spend their time keyboard campaigning, playing others, stirring when they have no intention of coming................Good Day.

[flattop32355]

Re: infantry uniform guidlines

...Reading the book on the 57th, All Hell's Broke Loose in Georgia, the companies that made up the 57th came from those companies that were doing State service in Savannah. Further, all but one company (Co. A) came from rich, wealthy, prosperous parts of Georgia that were centers of fabric and cloth manufacture. The State of GA published reg's for it's State troops. Surviving uniforms from these early companies and regiments were cadet gray/blue-gray in color. If the companies that made up the 57th GA were first known as the 2nd GA, and if other State regiments of infantry both above and below the 2nd Reg't were wearing blue-gray/cadet gray uniforms, it would beg to argue that the 2nd - later the 57th - were also wearing finely made, GA produced blue-gray/cadet uniforms.

As per the above referenced book, it would appear that at least eight of the companies that would become the 57th GA Infantry had originally begun service as Georgia State Troops in October/November of 1861, with a six month enlistment ending about April, 1862.

If we assume that all had been issued proper GA state uniforms, we may also assume that by April 1862, these would have been well worn, if not worn out, from six months of continuous wear in active service, even if of the finest manufacture. This is not a given, but a high probability. I'm not aware that any replacement clothing was issued.

The men of these eight companies were then required to reenlist in Confederate service (conscription act). They spent no more than one month being the 2nd Regt, Georgia State Troops. Is it unreasonable to think that the state, knowing that they would be moving directly into Confederate service, would not therefore equip them with state uniforms, but expect the "national" government to equip them? I would think it likely, barring any other evidence.

Would they have returned from their furlough in (possibly if not probably) worn out/patched uniforms, or wearing clothing from home? I'm not seeing conclusive evidence either way.

This being the case, with no solid evidence to the contrary, I'm inclined to run with the research done that established the existing clothing standards for the event.

[KeithRK]

Re: infantry uniform guidlines

For me personally, without definitive documentation as to what the troops were wearing, I am going to go by the event guidelines.

For me, the point of the event is to experience moving as wagon train guards with a good sized wagon train over the better part of a week. It's not something we get to do very often.

I'm not going to get too worked up over what jacket I might be wearing.

[PogueMahone]

Re: infantry uniform guidlines

Having been consulted about the guidelines during the early phase of organizing this event, being the company captain for this event, being a past organizer of events and generally inclined to point out nonsense as I see it, allow me to add my thoughts ...

As has been pointed out, research was done. Nothing definitive nor conclusive was found. There are no narrative descriptions of clothing or photographs known at this time of the 57th Georgia during the time frame being portrayed. So, what we don't know is huge.

What we do know is that we have an officer that felt his men weren't being issued gear and more or less robbed a train to get it. We do know that some companies were organized around pre-war militia (but not all members of those companies were necessarily also militia). We do know that at least one company was "outfitted" by a local wealthy man, but we don't know what that includes. We do know that arms were first issued only days before this campaign began and may have come from a recent nearby capture of Federal supplies.

We still don't know what they were wearing when they fell in under Smith.

Event organizers regularly face a dearth of information and must fill in gaps between what is documented and what is not. Quite often we see outright contradictions to what is known and the event guidelines simply because we know people aren't going to buy a special coat for that one single event. And if, for some reason, someone convinces everyone to do that, it doesn't mean that it will be a huge success. It may even set back the credibility of the organizers in the future. Anyone who remembers the attempt to recreate the 3rd Miss impression at Manassas knows what I'm talking about. Special frocks and tricorn hats and other items and the whole thing turned into a debacle. We certainly didn't want that here.

This event, and these event organizers, aren't about being the kewl kids. Common sense prevailed. The guidelines were constructed to be attainable by all and, for those that would need to expand their wardrobe for the event, to be a positive improvement and not a expense that would hang in the closet unused.

Now as a past event organizer, I can tell you that I appreciate when people follow the guidelines, the rules and generally come to the event with the right attitude of cooperation. If they say flat haversack, don't bring food. If they say no cameras, don't hide one in your corset. If they say blue bowler hats only, start calling Billy and Bender and Clearwater and begging them to dye a hat. The event organizers have a vision of how they see the event unfolding and they need that cooperation to achieve that vision. Hopefully the participants will, at some point, get it and see the same vision.

I don't always agree with how events are put together or the guidelines or whatever, but if I want to attend the event, I follow the rules. This event is asking the same. There is a lot of danger involved in working with wagons and livestock. Fingers, toes, limbs, necks and lives may be injured or lost. This is serious business and a lot of thought has gone into how to get everyone back home as healthy and happy as they arrived. A lot of thought went into the guidelines as well. Let's trust the vision of the organizers.

thanks for reading my ramble,

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: infantry uniform guidlines

I don't often get a chance to totally agree with Poague, so I just couldn't let this opportunity pass.

The original question strikes me as a good one, and I sort of wondered about it myself, but then a number of other considerations led me to conclude that the organizers made a good choice.

So far as I know, we don't have much documentation of what the original medley of militia uniforms looked like. If we did, we would still lack documentation of how many company members would have obtained them (there's an analogous question out there, for example, about the number of 79th New Yorkers who ever got kilts), or have worn them in the field (the analogy here would be to Berdan's).

If, after leaping those two hurdles, our soldier still wishes to retain the fine array of the governor's guard, we run into Mr. Biederman's observation. The regulations assume that a soldier will need two jackets and three pairs of trousers in a year -- what sort of attire will he then have after six months in a militia uniform and a furlough at home?

This brings us to the whole question of the state or CS government's ability to supply clothing. We know that QMG Myers worked mightily to establish depots, but nonetheless the commutation system remained in effect until December 1862. (There's great article on CS issue jackets here that also deals with early war supply issues: http://www.military-historians.org/c...federate-1.htm)

Would most of the 57th have obtained their clothing by commutation? The fact that Walker's history doesn't refer to any issuances by the time they went to the front seems pretty compelling, as do references in later letters from soldiers referring to clothing sent from home ("I wish a roundabout, coat, vest, and pants, and some wolen shirts of some kind. I will need some socks also....")

At this point in the war, even the US government had problems supplying all the needs of its soldiers (Meigs even issued a general order in August 1862 requesting recruits to bring blankets from home). So, on balance, civilian garb strikes me as much more likely to have been worn than the original militia uniforms or any CS government issue.

Beyond the historical reasons, there are of course reenactor considerations involved. On one hand the organizers are striving for a high quality event and it should be pretty clear to all of us that they will be a lot more likely to get good impressions by indicating civilian clothes than by trying to sort through the huge range of military impressions that participants might likely bring. On the other, I'm personally very grateful that I get a chance to do some of my own research and pick a practical civilian outfit for hard marching in early August.

But all that's just my opinion. None of this, of course, will be a matter for much discussion three days into the event.