150th Cycle Meeting

[Campjacksonboy]

Re: 150th Cycle Meeting

I was just a little plesantly surprised to see this thread. Even St. Louis is getting ready for the 150th cycle. Evidently the local historcial society, Missouri Department of Natural Resources (The people who brought you Athens), The National Park Service, and others have come together and have are preparing for the 150th Anniversary Cycle. They had a meeting last month but I was not there. This however did not stop them from putting me in charge of the 1861 committee.

I do not know what direction this is going to take or if my efforts will be worthy of a listing on the AC. Just a hint, look at my screen name and ponder. In the mean time I'll try and keep the powers here posted.

Our first meeting is in May. Just an FYI and heads up.

I'd bet the 2011-15 will be jammed glad to see this thread popped up.

Frank Aufmuth
Missourians Unite!

[nrandolph]

Re: 150th Cycle Meeting

I think I was there, come to think about it, I think I was the organizer...:wink_smil

Chris,

...so I guess you do remember the civilians.Well that was early in my campaign life, ha,ha! That, and you were probably so far up the Big Bug ladder I never saw you since we were always out on the frontline (just kidding!)

Neil Randolph
1st WV

[Hank Trent]

Re: 150th Cycle Meeting

I can't remember whether you were there or not, but War On The James had a very good civilian component to it. I believe that most all civilians there tended to portray war refugees. The Union forces kept having to deal with them the whole weekend, as they went back and forth through our lines. I distinctly remember my friend and I escorted one man back out of our lines with the admonition from our officer not to come back or be shot!

Maybe one of the civilians present could give some of their perspective to help in future events.

I was one of the civilians at War on the James, and also attended Chris's October 1862 event a couple years ago as a civilian, and I think it points up one problem with civilian participation at the 150th events. It all comes down to: what experience do civilians want?

I believe that most civilian reenactors do not want, and will not do, what we did at those events. No buildings were provided for us, simply because they weren't available, and the roles were created so that we were as mobile and functional as the military, and in danger of being caught, detained, searched, arrested, marched off, punished, or even killed as I was at War on the James--one of the few events I left early after my "body" was taken away for burial. :D

I expect that the number of civilians who attended, probably about a dozen or so at War on the James and half a dozen at October 1862, are close to the maximum numbers of civilians that one could get for those activities. I'm not seeing significantly more in similar recent civilian roles at events like Marmaduke's Raid, Into the Piney Woods, etc.

While those numbers of house-less civilians would balance nicely with several thousand soldiers and could be integrated into almost any terrain or site, it wouldn't allow for the participation of civilians who expect to camp in tents or other structures, bring lots of stuff, stay put, have a predictable weekend and some time to shop at sutlers and socialize, etc.--and those make up the vast majority of civilian reenactors, including some of the civilian groups that have been mentioned in this thread.

So while I would love to see lots more events with civilian roles like War on the James or October 1862, in addition to larger events in civilian towns with houses, I think they're not what the majority of civilian reenactors are looking for, and therefore those events are useless as a model to attract the kind of broad, dare I say mainstream, participation among civilian reenactors that the big 150ths would be aiming for.

So I dunno. What kind of experience do the civilians who would attend the 150ths want? I know it's probably not what I'd want, but then there are already smaller events that offer what I like.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: 150th Cycle Meeting

It's an interesting problem, Hank, and I think you've defined some of the challenges. It will be easier to combine all the military in scripted battle scenarios that it will to combine all the civilians in a single coherent role.

The answer might lie in having several ways for civilians to participate: e.g., for the more mobile, a "campaign" scenario involving refugees or innocent bystanders caught up in the action; for the less so, the residents of the nearest town, whose demonstrations of life in the 19th century would play out in appropriate activities before and after the battle scenarios.

I won't say it was easier, but it seemed less challenging to work with a small number of civilians with well-researched individual impressions than to coordinate something involving scores of less fully developed personas. But that's what we may have to do.

We may be edging closer to the concept of "scripting" larger-scale civilian participation in these events. I don't know -- have people done this? Are they willing to work on it? (And are those the questions you just asked? :) )

[dusty27]

Re: 150th Cycle Meeting

While I understand what Chris is trying to do, a lot of the strides his events may have made in the recent past, would be, in my opinion, erased if future events that want to attract large numbers of MILITARY cater to the tag along family type "civilians".

There are flat out VERY few legitimate opportunities for a large contingent of civilians to reenact civilian roles while in a military setting, which most of these large events are planned to be.

Don't we have enough "single" soldiers to have numbers at an event without "civilians"?

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: 150th Cycle Meeting

I agree with Dusty here. There are numerous LH museums all across the country that can be and are used for good civilian LH events. Conner Prairie, Old Bedford Village, Boonefield Village, to name a few, plus settings like various shaker villages. These are great locations that provide a meaningful context for a civilian presence (towns, farms, etc. with buildings).

"Must" there be a civilian contingent at every event? I don't think so. Just as every 1860's living history event need not have "soldiers".

Sometimes civilians add a lot to an otherwise military reenactment. However, to paraphrase "U2", sometimes a reenactment needs civilians like a fish needs a bicycle.

[Wild Rover]

Re: 150th Cycle Meeting

John and Dusty,

Good civilian interaction adds a ton to any event, whether there are 20 participants or 2,000.

I hate to say this, but perhaps the reason the majority, and I said majority, or civilians are not progressing, is due to a lack of a central organized group.

Most Military Reenactors belong to a company, and then, to a slightly lesser degree, to a battalion, and sometimes to umbrella groups. Things to to be more organized due to such, and information flow and control works far better.

Instead of organizing 300 people, you only have to deal with 2-3 in such cases.

Then larger tasks, such as the Perryville LH Village can be accomplished.

Dunno, but makes sense to me,

[Annette Bethke]

Re: 150th Cycle Meeting

I hate to say this, but perhaps the reason the majority, and I said majority, or civilians are not progressing, is due to a lack of a central organized group.

Precisely!! You hit the nail on the head. Civilians, generally, belong to a military unit or an auxiliary of that unit. The few independants must, usually, rely on military companies for events, which will have a military focus.

For the 150th, I think it would be a wonderful contribution to have events that show the civilian homefront. However, this may require to draw on those men who also do military impressions and therefore a strong civilian representation should be had at any meeting to plan events so that the military and civilian events do not take away from the other.

[Hank Trent]

Re: 150th Cycle Meeting

I hate to say this, but perhaps the reason the majority, and I said majority, or civilians are not progressing, is due to a lack of a central organized group.

In my experience, organized groups encourage progression up to whatever level they're at. Beyond that, they discourage progression, because it interferes with the cohesion of the group, makes the leaders look less accurate by comparison, is seen as questioning their authority, splinters attendance as some members do or don't want to attend particular kinds of events, and so forth. It's no different from military organizations that split and split again as some members want to move up the f/m/a/c/p/h spectrum and others don't.

So if most civilians are below the level of the group that's formed, a central group will encourage progression. Beyond that level, progression will be stifled. In this case, I'm defining progression as increased overall historical accuracy during events.

So I think the result will just depend on what the central organized group is like, compared to the level of most of the civilians that it attracts. If most civilians are below the level of the group, it will certainly tend to increase the accuracy of the members, overall. That's just my opinion of course; others will surely disagree.

What I'm curious about, though, is what level of accuracy do the civilians who will attend big 150th events want, really? I'm seeing events like September Storm and At High Tide as following the classic military mainstream format: armies in static camps regardless of the historic scenario, the usual "sutler row" nearby for both to access, scheduled battles with everything resetting in between, and minimal army discipline (no pickets overnight, no passes required, etc.). In tandem with that is the typical mainstream civilian model: people camped in wall tents with centralized activities featuring lectures, dances, "sutler row" shopping, modern socializing interspersed with short historic scenarios, and minimal period interaction with period military activities. I realize of course that various groups did carpe eventums and adjuncts, but I'm speaking about what the event as a whole offered.

The civilians at September Storm seemed happier with their event than the civilians at At High Tide. Is that true? I attended both as military, so didn't really get a good feel for the civilian reaction.

If it's true, is the September Storm model the level of success that we're looking for? Because it seemed to me designed to include civilians who like attending events with their military groups or military husband/boyfriend and who are comfortable with the mainstream model. If that's part of the purpose of having civilians connected with 150th military events, I'm not sure how much one can progress in accuracy without alienating them. For that matter, how far can one progress with the military, without alienating them? I'm not really picturing any large event (1000+ soldiers) leaving the mainstream model far behind, with hobby numbers as they currently are.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: 150th Cycle Meeting

I find myself in the weird position of agreeing with the last several posters, even when they appear to disagree with each other.

The challenges presented by civilians parallel those presented by the military. The problem gets to the issue of balance and threshholds.

In my experience of events, you can obtain a high level of individual material culture, a modicum of first person, and a minimum of headaches with standards, when you deal with people you know in smaller scenarios -- e.g., the picket post, the two- or three-company battalion, the foraging party and local citizens.

But if you're shooting for a battle reenactment, with several credible manuever units on a side and combined arms, you start balancing your goals with the resources available. At the Winchester meeting, someone mentioned a threshhold of about 500 -- below that, you have very few problems getting people to work and play well according to reasonable standards. You also don't have too many civilians.

Above that, the challenges multiply, but it's worth trying if one has a reasonable chance of getting a good battle experience, growing the hobby, and achieving whatever other goals you set for the event.

At September Storm (I don't know about "At High Tide" -- I was kinda busy that weekend -- but I think it was basically the same), we benefited some from the fact that the potentially more problematical military units attending knew they were going to a different kind of event and had largely prepared themselves. But we still had a lot of civilians who could have been better served -- and could have better served the event -- if we'd done more work on an appropriate scenario. And I'd like to think we can try that in the upcoming cycle.

The cycle -- so far -- envisions one "fusion" and one "campaign" event a year as a rough goal. The latter shouldn't be an issue -- the requirement for movement will in itself eliminate the least convincing military and civilian impressions. The former will probably only present challenges for the bigger 150s.

How can such events handle civilians? I'm not sure -- I hope I'm not the one who has to figure it out. But I wouldn't mind working with others on the problem. I also know that the citizens of Sharpsburg and Gettysburg did not automatically dematerialize on the approach of the hostile armies, so I think history may give us something to work with.

Hank, I'm not sure if groups necessarily impose their own level. I think I've seen a few, military and civilian, that collectively move forward. They move more slowly than the most authentic members in the hobby, but I truly believe that there are many many more candidates for progression than whoever makes this year's "us" list. That said, I fully acknowledge that your own personal standards will present, for most of us, ideals rather than goals we can quickly or easily achieve.

Sorry to go on... :)

[cwdoc45]

Re: 150th Cycle Meeting

I hope someone offers an alternative to the Farb Fest known as Getty$$$$burg!

[BarryDusel]

Re: 150th Cycle Meeting

For Gettysburg. They are expecting 1,000,000 +/- folks in town for the 150th Anniversary. Now that area can't handle 1/10th that. It's gonna be 1 huge C.F. Read on.... it may be a good weekend to go fishin'

Four million tourists expected for 150th anniversary | Hanover Evening Sun

https://www.eveningsun.com

[Silas]

Re: 150th Cycle Meeting

Here's the actual link to the story : http://www.eveningsun.com/ci_1636345...eveningsun.com The current set of new posts in this old thread are very off topic as the current folder concerns nonEBUFU adjuncts in 2011.

It may be well past time to close this thread. Until the likely closure occurs, please take complaints, comments and rumors about The Hugest Suck On The National Reenacting Calendar - meaning 150th Gettysburg - to that mainstream forum.