150th Anniversary Cycle, and how it might impact our end of the Hobby

[Todd Watts]

Re: 150th Anniversary Cycle, and how it might impact our end of the Hobby

I respect those of you that really strive for perfection. I do think however that these units can drive some people out of the hobby. I do some work with The Blockade Runner as some of you know and am well-aware of flaws in the authenticity of much of their stuff (as with all other sutleries'). They have some "stitch nazi" complaint about weekly from someone somewhere and have also had comments from new re-enactors that are trying to get started in the hobby that show that some more experienced person somewhere is telling them to only get this or that and it causes them such confusion that they are bordering on walking away from the whole re-enacting hobby. These larger sutleries simply cannot stay in business with 100% authenticity due to costs, which I have learned by working there. They must have stuff made close enough that it is passable while remaining affordable. If it is not affordable, people simply will not buy it and quite frankly, the hobby ends with the last of us alive today.

While it'd be fantastic to have really authentic events, the fact is it is not completely possible unless kept on the extremely small scale. In my insignificant opinion, we should come together as a hobby and support the big anniversary events like the bigger battles' 150ths. There is room there for campaigners, mainstreamers, newbies, senior citizen privates, grotesquely obese Confederate cavalrymen, civilian re-enactors, horseless artillery, etc. to all come together with the common goal of trying to approach the size and scope of the bigger battles. I am constantly amazed and discouraged at the stories I hear about units refusing to "play" with other units or at some events because "that guy" is running it. The Civil War itself was made up of egos and antagonistic officers and units which all made up the whole story that we are trying to remember and honor. It seems to me, and again this is just lil' ol' me talking, we should come together at all levels once in a while instead of sniping at each other. The campaigner groups can get new interested recruits at these bigger events, and units can trade members that meet and generate new friends and new participants here. Then we all go our separate ways with the friendships and stories to tell for years to come. Re-enacting/living history I think is personal to each of us at different levels. Many of us simply do not have the cash available for 100% perfections. Many have jobs that keep them from growing hair styles they'd like to have, or only allow them maybe one or two weekends a year to participate. Most of us are not in the physical condition of the actual CW soldiers. But as long as each person is reasonably passable in equippage and is personally satisfied with his level of authenticity, we should encourage each other.

[guad42]

Re: 150th Anniversary Cycle, and how it might impact our end of the Hobby

Well said Todd, I could not agree more.

I will never forget the time I was at a public event in California, manning the booth for SUVCW or USMCHC, and this young guy, must have been about 19 or so, came strolling up. He was wearing a sutler row confederate jacket, a floppy resistol cowboy hat, wahmaker shirt, jeans, motorcycle boots, and was carrying at least three pistols. He was somewhere between an extra on a John Ford movie, a Spagetti western and Pirate of the Carribean.

He nervously asked where he could find "a new unit to join". Who knows, maybe he'd been burned by his pards, or he'd seen the more decent units at the event - 1st Texas, or the Federal group - anyways, we politely pointed him in the direction of one of those two units. I am sure if he was not too shy, he would have found a warm welcome, if he bothered to hunt them up. Point is, they're out there - the one's that have not joined in on the paint-ball with blanks experience that is often (at least out here) WWII reenacting.

-Sam Dolan
1st Texas Inf.

[SCTiger]

Re: 150th Anniversary Cycle, and how it might impact our end of the Hobby

The campaigner groups can get new interested recruits at these bigger events,

For what purpose Todd? So we can keep going to these mega-turbo love fests? I hate to tell you this but, most reenactors aren't really interested in history, they are there for "friends, family & fun." I was told by one mainstream reenactor that it was more about "Disney" and less about history. So there you have it.

No one expects 100 percent perfection, it's about observing the actual history. Not some CW hippie commune.

C/P/H units make a huge mistake recruiting from the mainstream, simply because the return is not there, perhaps 2-7 percent of the commercial hobby. Historical units would have better success recruiting from CW clubs, the military, college and high school history clubs, friends and neighbors and anyone visiting their LH.

Your typical mainstream spectator wants to see the fireworks show, eat the carnival food and tour the camps. Most have no clue about the actual history behind the battle. We tried for two years and it's a colossal waste of time.

[Hank Trent]

Re: 150th Anniversary Cycle, and how it might impact our end of the Hobby

In addition to everything Greg Deese said, which I agree with, here's another thought.

I respect those of you that really strive for perfection. I do think however that these units can drive some people out of the hobby.

Those who don't strive for perfection also drive some people out of the hobby (realizing of course that perfection, or even anything close to it, can never be attained).

It just depends which kinds of people one wants to drive out.

If I thought that my only future was attending events among people who don't care about improving, who don't want to do what I do, and who actively discourage or ostracize those who want to do better while planning non-historical activities for themselves, I'd quit and find another hobby. Back in the late 1990s, that was pretty much what I faced, before the EBUFU movement came along and before better computer communication made it possible for like-minded people to find each other across the country.

In theory, it sounds like low standards are good for everyone. Those who don't want to meet high standards can come, and those who want to exceed the standards aren't prevented from doing so.

But in most cases, they actually are prevented, by social pressure, lack of event resources dedicated to their interests, and by non-historical activities like modern sutler row shopping, a ball, food vendors, etc. that draw off fence-sitters and posers who might grudgingly enjoy guard duty or a march or other historical activities if they had no other temptation, and thus add numbers to the more accurate side.

While it'd be fantastic to have really authentic events, the fact is it is not completely possible unless kept on the extremely small scale.

If that's the way it is, well, then, I guess we'll just have to put on extremely small scale events.

Re-enacting/living history I think is personal to each of us at different levels. Many of us simply do not have the cash available for 100% perfections. Many have jobs that keep them from growing hair styles they'd like to have, or only allow them maybe one or two weekends a year to participate. Most of us are not in the physical condition of the actual CW soldiers.

Concerning the last sentence, modern medicine really is a blessing. I wouldn't want the diseases and nutritional deficiencies they had to suffer.

But please name an event where reenactors are prevented from attending because they don't have a "100% perfect" impression, or they have a job-required haircut, or they can only participate in one or no other events that year. As far as physical disabilities, I think one just needs to look for specific roles or choose events that accomodate those--not all "authentic" events require marching long distances.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[MD_Independent]

Re: 150th Anniversary Cycle, and how it might impact our end of the Hobby

Monsieur Trent and Mr. Deese are entirely correct, and they are pretty much standing on the 'founding principles' of the EBUFU schedule of events and of this very forum.

Personally, I have no more interest in attending a 'mega mainstream event' than I would a carnival held on an original battlefield. I will use 2012 as an example. If I had a choice between the 'mega event' somewhere near Hagerstown and a good moving LH at Sharpsburg, the LH would win out.

My interest in this side of the hobby was not sparked by some posers camping out in the tree line and hanging out on sutler's row(there are so many of these types here on the AC these days). Instead, it was a simple one-line article in the CCG advertising this website. I came here, immediately saw the difference and started buying my own stuff, asking for loaner gear, and attending better events.

This is the Authentic-campaigner. The mainstream events have their own place on the web and it shouldn't be here. Why are we talking about "Brices X-roads" and "A company at New Market" when there are better options out there? The Resaca Adjunct was run by some good people in Georgia, and it turned out well from what I understand. Same goes for the "Ocean Pond" adjunct, company sized, but put on by proven EBUFU supporters/organizers. Too often, every five-man mess uses the 'adjunct' section of this site to add legitimacy to their little club without actively supporting the EBUFU events.

It irritates me without end to see people who have never attended an EBUFU event come on here and tell us to lower our standards and support their efforts. And then tell us that we need to do so in order to 'recruit new blood' into this wing of the hobby. These types, in conjunction with the dozens of 'keyboard kampaigners' that now flood this network, are very detrimental to advancing the cause of historical accuracy. These people are often found on that other forum, kicking up a row about how the mainstreamers need to buy better gear, do research, etc., but fail to tell these same mainstreamers about the EBUFU schedule, thus making any of the efforts made by said mainstreamer almost pointless.

I've worked hard on my impression. I don't do it to impress anyone. I'm here to learn, and learning possibilities at the mega-events are lacking, and will always be lacking. Hopefully, some folks with good sense will step up and organize EBUFU events that will conflict with the so-called 'mega events'. If it's a choice between a mega-event 'adjunct' and nothing, I'll take nothing. "AHT" is as low as I'll go for authenticity standards. Hank was right. Without the events that push us to our limits and cause us to THINK about what we do and say, I would have left this hobby long ago.

Bill Birney
CRs

[Pvt_Sullivan]

Re: 150th Anniversary Cycle, and how it might impact our end of the Hobby

You think that's a Rock Billy? - sorry couldn't let that one slip by.

I like my hobby. The one which challenges me to be mentally and to a certain extent physically prepared for what is going to happen. That recreation of historical events is what gets my goat and draws me to EBUFU events.

OK, the 150th Anniversary is upon us. If we don't plan ahead and create the events we want to attend, there won't be a C/P/H Hobby anymore and we'll be sitting around the camp fires roasting marshmellows with the Family-Friendly units or looking good in our handsewn clothes drinking sasparilla on Sutler Row and wondering what happened.

I am not saying that we purposefully conflict with anyone's events. But I do say we need to make our intentions known what we are going to do and plan ahead. This board provides a great means to do that via the future Event's Folders. I've already put a marker out for what us denizens of the Carolina Low Country are going to do to give ourselves (in the end it is selfish) and the C/P/H Hobby in early 2011.

Now if a high-level coordination between the Mainstream and Campaigner hobbies could be affected so that the different types of events don't end up on top of each other, that is great. But if we sit around holding our breath for the large Mainstream Organizations to bless our event dates and deconflict with us... we'll all die from asphyxia. And if we hope to 'convert' mainstreamers to our campaigner's manifesto we'll be sorely disappointed. I agree with Greg and Hank and others statements here, campaigners grow into our hobby, they are are not converted to it in my opinion.

[SCTiger]

Re: 150th Anniversary Cycle, and how it might impact our end of the Hobby

Booyah! Hank , Birney and Buzz!

One other thing, if you really want to help your mess out, find a historical site, support it, volunteer to work there, hold a number of micro Living History demonstrations there and put your time in. Spend a few weekends with them, over some "no standards" BBB. That would really help the 150th. Plus you won't be sharing the stage with a ocean of bad impressions, trying to get your message out.

People who seek out actual historical sites, have the interest and love of history that we do. It's a refreshing departure from the circus crowd.

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Re: 150th Anniversary Cycle, and how it might impact our end of the Hobby

Yep,

Remember these simple phrases...

'History comes first...'

'Remember what this is about...it's more than stupid events...'

You know, while many people strive to 'recreate' a period atmosphere, where one's guard is always up, ever vigilant to smite FARBisms...there's alot of other stuff interconnected to the hobby, like preservation, restoration, etc...yes, these like most things these involve...work...there's alot of good events out there that find the balance on recreating the past, preserving land, and making the historic sites a better place. It would seem like the greatest champions of these values are waning...

It would seem as we've stived for more generic impressions (not focussed on particular individuals/units for anymore than a given weekend), we've lost touch with who the real men were...what they experienced...and the research of primary documents has come to an abrupt decline.

150th Cycles should include:
1. History: a heavy emphasis the men(regardless of numbers)
2. Preservation: remember the land
3. Restoration/Maintenance/Upkeep: With hundreds of Battlefields/Historic Sites throughout our nation, there's lots of work that needs doing...cutting grass, cutting trees, maintaining roads, building/fixing fences, painting...etc. Simply put, regardless of what the economy does, these places are still going to need volunteer time/money to 'preserve' these places for future generations.
4. Research, Research, Research...and act...I've often wondered why more groups didn't put together museum trips/battlefield tours beyond Living Histories being conducted...why must things like this be limited to only the top tier (I know retorical question...maybe that's why those groups are held in such reverence).


So who's up for the challenge?

Paul B.

[Pvt_Sullivan]

Re: 150th Anniversary Cycle, and how it might impact our end of the Hobby

So who's up for the challenge?

Over here Paul... but you already knew that.

[Todd Watts]

Re: 150th Anniversary Cycle, and how it might impact our end of the Hobby

I really was not trying to suggest that anyone "lower their standards" but was merely suggesting that we can come together as various groups to support some of the events as one. Standards are personal at their core and one can have very high accuracy standards even at events where most participants are less than perfectly correct. At all main events there are newbies with black combat boots, a new Euroclub musket, a purple sleeping bag, etc. And there are those in the same unit that are further along in the process of bettering their impressions. Across the camps one will notice some camps very neat and orderly and some that are campaign-style with guys flopped all over the place. Perhaps in some of these events the groups could be camped segregated somehow so spectators can get some living history as well as then to see camps where they might feel more able to join without feeling unwanted or unable to participate. The numbers for the "dog and pony show" would be there for decent sized battles (which is all the public really wants anyway) but afterwards the groups would be back in their respective roles where interested spectators can actually meet and learn about the period. I do see however from my experiences at the store, re-enactments and LH at the NPS that there are many levels of "newbies" available to us if they happen into the right meeting up front. A lot of people would love to learn and become more correct but they have to start somewhere and very few will start in the "hard core" groups both because of the perceived cost factor in that level of perfection and also because few people come into contact with those groups that stay focused on lesser-known out of the way events. If a great LH event that focuses on historical perfection is attended by 20 people over a whole day, there is just not enough interested potential recruits there. But if a good sized event with many layers of accuracy is attended and really enjoyed by 2000 people, the hobby can grow and some of these recruits can and probably will gravitate toward LH events after getting their feet wet. The big long-expected 150ths are fast approaching and as a hobby at all levels there are going to be a lot of opportunities to grow and learn.

[Clsinclair]

Re: 150th Anniversary Cycle, and how it might impact our end of the Hobby

I feel that with the 150th events in and around Charleston that groups can work together. With the help of the 26th NC, the Palmetto Battalion, the P.L.H.A., and other groups on this forum that we can come together for the common good. This means that there will be opportunities for some good solid L.H. programs at Fort Sumter and the other Forts in and around Charleston. The events will not be limited to a weekend but for a full week. I feel as most of you do about the mega events. All that is missing is the ringmaster saying "in this ring is the flying monkeys". Chickamauga was a mainstream event and our brigade (A.O.T.) campaigned in the woods with the ticks and chiggers. It wasn't with the same standards of Rich Mountain but it also wasn't too far from it either. Those showing up with the heavy camp furniture and tents were directed to the Civilian camps. I am hoping that I can pick out an event in the future such as Rich Mountain, Paynes Farm, etc and raise a company or two from our battalion to participate. Hell, if I can do it then anybody can and I have done it. We have more people than you may think that would enjoy and can meet the standards. I would expect no standards to be lowered. Just my thoughts.

(After reading some of the post maybe I am wrong to think that this notion of having authentic groups along with some mainstream groups at the 150th's in Charleston, SC will work. Oh well, that is sad. Maybe I will always be a farby mainstreamer who enjoys attending some authentic events from time to time. Contact with the powers to be in Charleston has already been made and meetings have been attended by those powers. I attended the Fort Moultrie L.H. with the P.L.H.A. from a Wednesday to a Sunday during the Hunley funeral and mainstream battalions camped outside of the fort. I didn't hear any complaints from anyone but according to some post here it didn't work and will never have a chance to work. )

[Hank Trent]

Re: 150th Anniversary Cycle, and how it might impact our end of the Hobby

Standards are personal at their core and one can have very high accuracy standards even at events where most participants are less than perfectly correct.

How? I'll give military examples, but this applies equally well to civilians, if not more so.

Let's assume that one or more of the following were accurate for the time and place being portrayed, and my standards say that therefore I should do them.

How do I assign myself to picket duty and get relieved after two hours, if there's no officer ordering me to do so and no one else standing picket at 2 or 4 a.m.?

How do I march into battle, and spend the next day marching on the retreat, if the everyone is required to camp in a fixed location?

Who do I go to for passes to leave camp? Where do I find my sergeant for sick call? Who do I socialize with when everyone is singing songs around the campfire and talking about things that "I" (my 19th century persona) can't contribute to, because "I" don't know about them?

And those are merely practical considerations, not even taking into account social ones.

The only way to even try to address those kinds of problems is to do a carpe eventum or a campaigner adjunct, and those of course are done, and are one of the attempts at solving the issue of how to experience being in battle with thousands, while trying to avoid the modern atmosphere that naturally occurs the rest of the day. But I don't see them as ideal, for a lot of reasons.

What campaigner adjuncts/carpe eventums have you done at mainstream events? What high quality events have you attended? How do you think they compare?

I've only attended a few mainstream events as part of mini carpe eventums. Sometimes, with the right people and historic circumstances, the carpe eventum works quite well, in my opinion. But most of the time, it's just impossible to do it, especially alone, and feel comfortable or welcome.

But if a good sized event with many layers of accuracy is attended and really enjoyed by 2000 people, the hobby can grow and some of these recruits can and probably will gravitate toward LH events after getting their feet wet.

But rather than those better events with the unit they joined, their unit will be at more mainstream events, recruiting yet more members. It's the multi-level marketing version of reenacting--the goal is not to put one's time and effort into attending or sponsoring good events, but into recruiting more members.

I'm curious about an answer to this question in my previous post, since you seemed to imply that these events existed:

But please name an event where reenactors are prevented from attending because they don't have a "100% perfect" impression, or they have a job-required haircut, or they can only participate in one or no other events that year. As far as physical disabilities, I think one just needs to look for specific roles or choose events that accomodate those--not all "authentic" events require marching long distances.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Hank Trent]

Re: 150th Anniversary Cycle, and how it might impact our end of the Hobby

Those showing up with the heavy camp furniture and tents were directed to the Civilian camps.

I'm sure any civilians hoping for a more authentic experience were glad to have them as neighbors.

While I realize that most civilians at mainstream events are just as history-lite as most of the military reenactors, so it really doesn't matter, I hope the authentic end of the hobby is beyond the mindset that the civilians are the dumping ground for farbs who don't meet the high standards that the military wants.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[PogueMahone]

Re: 150th Anniversary Cycle, and how it might impact our end of the Hobby

This is the Authentic-campaigner. The mainstream events have their own place on the web and it shouldn't be here. Why are we talking about "Brices X-roads" and "A company at New Market" when there are better options out there? The Resaca Adjunct was run by some good people in Georgia, and it turned out well from what I understand. Same goes for the "Ocean Pond" adjunct, company sized, but put on by proven EBUFU supporters/organizers. Too often, every five-man mess uses the 'adjunct' section of this site to add legitimacy to their little club without actively supporting the EBUFU events.

It irritates me without end to see people who have never attended an EBUFU event come on here and tell us to lower our standards and support their efforts. And then tell us that we need to do so in order to 'recruit new blood' into this wing of the hobby. These types, in conjunction with the dozens of 'keyboard kampaigners' that now flood this network, are very detrimental to advancing the cause of historical accuracy. These people are often found on that other forum, kicking up a row about how the mainstreamers need to buy better gear, do research, etc., but fail to tell these same mainstreamers about the EBUFU schedule, thus making any of the efforts made by said mainstreamer almost pointless.

I've worked hard on my impression. I don't do it to impress anyone. I'm here to learn, and learning possibilities at the mega-events are lacking, and will always be lacking. Hopefully, some folks with good sense will step up and organize EBUFU events that will conflict with the so-called 'mega events'. If it's a choice between a mega-event 'adjunct' and nothing, I'll take nothing. "AHT" is as low as I'll go for authenticity standards. Hank was right. Without the events that push us to our limits and cause us to THINK about what we do and say, I would have left this hobby long ago.

Bill Birney
CRs

Well stated.

There are a lot of people reading this forum that don't participate in events of any sort. There are a lot of people reading this forum that don't participate in EBUFU events. There are too many people posting on this forum that do not participate in EBUFU events. There are too many people posting on this forum that don't have the level of experience or research to provide answers to questions.

Pimping and promoting events by bumping threads to the top every day is not creating word of mouth, it is aggravating to the reader. I read event threads for new information from the organizers or research volunteered by an interested participant. When a thread gets bumped with nonsense and posts lacking any beneficial information, I start alerting the mods. I'd like to see a ban on these events. I'd like to see a ban on the persons doing the bumping. If there is no new information or research to be shared, then maybe there is no need to make a public spectacle of your non-information. Make me want to attend your event, don't make me want to avoid you.

Todd,

Sorry, dude, but I attend the better quality events because I don't want to see the farbs. It is that simple. Maybe there won't be any first person in camp, but at least I don't have to look around at a bunch of bad gear, uniforms and tons of crap. My last mainstream event was Mill Springs and I put my musket in the truck Saturday afternoon and committed myself to socializing on sutler row the rest of the event. I left Sunday before the battle. Why? The event was sucking the life out of me. I couldn't stand it anymore.

There is no "common ground". There are good events and bad events. I choose the good events.

[GarrettG1993]

Re: 150th Anniversary Cycle, and how it might impact our end of the Hobby

I agree,
You can not convert a mainstreamer, if he wants to change his ways he will. I did.
As for 150 cycle events I would like to see more of the Megas in the West. Think about it by having most large events in Va, SC, PA, ect. you are really limiting the numbers of participants from my side of the Big Muddy. where as if you had more of the larger events in the centeral US, AL, GA, TN, you would effectively split the distance, and in my opinion increase attendance.


Regards,
Garrett Glover