150th Anniversary Cycle, and how it might impact our end of the Hobby

[MD_Independent]

Re: 150th Anniversary Cycle, and how it might impact our end of the Hobby

Mr. Glover,
Won't happen. The profits are in the DC/Richmond strip, and these are 'for profit' events. "AHT" or "Summer of '62", maybe. "Grant vs. Lee" or "Gettysburg 135th", never again.

Bill Birney
CRs

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: 150th Anniversary Cycle, and how it might impact our end of the Hobby

Can't we all just get along? :-)

Actually, I guess we do for the most part, despite our rhetorical flourishes on line.

Everyone has a right to their own hobby. I have my own reasons for avoiding mega-events. Others have their own reasons for avoiding events I like. That's fine. None of us owes anyone anything but our presence at events we want to go to. And maybe a little honesty about history, I hope.

Both extremes of the hobby are indebted to each other.

To the heavier-on-the-hobby-than-history side, the guys out on the fringes of authenticity are constantly digging up cool information for you to use gratis, and doing things that make us all look like academically-sound, preservation-minded public-spirited citizens. Or more than we would on our own, anyway.

To the authenticity-or-death (or both) side, even the worst "farb" contributes to maintaining a folk memory of the great epic of American history. And they provide the fields that nourish most recruits.

If the "p/c/h" side of the hobby consists primarily of people who started in amateur sports and ultimately decided to go pro, then they should and will at least tolerate the authenticity-challenged side as the source of future recruits and recognize that their events at least bring more people in the door than the more serious, standard-driven living histories. I used, for example, to make fun of Cedar Creek. I reserve the right to continue to do so, but I also recognize that if it didn't exist, we would have to invent it.

All of us have much more in common with all the rest of us than we do with the average citizen who knows little and cares less about heritage and history. Given that, I think no one should be condemned about any decision they make concerning what events to attend in the 150th cycle. "Campaigners" are under no obligation to support "mega-events" and the average reenactor has no obligation to "step up" to a campaign event.

The choice of what you want to do with your spare time is a complex one, but I'm pretty sure it's not a reflection on your basic morality or character.

I think most of us agree that for the 150th there will be a handful of mega-events that the older, more established hobby clubs will support, and which will attract most of their members, including the people who haven't been to a reenactment in a few years. You can celebrate that or run in horror from it, but if it keeps the hobby alive and history in the public mind, it's not a bad thing.

We also know that a handful of core folks will continue to try to upstage each other in "history-heavy" events. Thank God for that -- I'll go to the ones I think I can survive.

And there will be many attempts to find a middle ground, where reenactors try to raise a goodly sized tent and still maintain respect for history with reasonable authenticity standards and well scripted action. I hope to see many of you there.

Bottom line -- I believe that if we all do what we love and waste no energy reviling those who follow a different path, everything will turn out fine for all of us.

See you all in the field.

[Guy Gane III]

Re: 150th Anniversary Cycle, and how it might impact our end of the Hobby

Mike, that has to be the best thing I have ever read. Seriously. You nailed it.

[Clsinclair]

Re: 150th Anniversary Cycle, and how it might impact our end of the Hobby

I'm sure any civilians hoping for a more authentic experience were glad to have them as neighbors.

While I realize that most civilians at mainstream events are just as history-lite as most of the military reenactors, so it really doesn't matter, I hope the authentic end of the hobby is beyond the mindset that the civilians are the dumping ground for farbs who don't meet the high standards that the military wants.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

Hank,

Chickamauga (145th) didn't have authentic Civilian Camps and if they did I would not have sent anyone there. There were many differences from the Civilian LH camp at Perryville and what was at Chickamauga. My point was that we attempted to set up a more history correct camp within a mainstream event and our brigade was not within sight of the heavy camps. My apology if I offended anyone with my post.

[Hank Trent]

Re: 150th Anniversary Cycle, and how it might impact our end of the Hobby

Hank,

Chickamauga (145th) didn't have authentic Civilian Camps and if they did I would not have sent anyone there. There were many differences from the Civilian LH camp at Perryville and what was at Chickamauga. My point was that we attempted to set up a more history correct camp within a mainstream event and our brigade was not within sight of the heavy camps. My apology if I offended anyone with my post.

No problem. Honestly, that's about the best you can do under the circumstances.

It's just that with old myths being bandied about, like the fact that us elitists are driving people out of the hobby by demanding 100% perfection, I want to make sure that other old ideas don't start circulating too, like military reenactors need to be "hardcore" in the military camp but their own civilian camp is where they can go to farb out, which was Linda's experience with someone else's carpe eventum at Mumford many years ago. Ah, the bad old days. :)

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Old Reb]

Re: 150th Anniversary Cycle, and how it might impact our end of the Hobby

There can be no getting along between those that alter reality to suit their whims and those that wish to see history accurately presented. To suggest otherwise goes against what the AC is suppose to stand for. No compromise, no watered down version, no mainstream newspeak that cloaks itself in the "campaigner" garmet but retains its core belief that authenticity can be tweaked to suit the participants own wishes.

[SCTiger]

Re: 150th Anniversary Cycle, and how it might impact our end of the Hobby

It appears Tom that's it's already there and a number of forum members have drank the "can't we all just get along" Kool-Aid. Hopefully some real heroes from our side of the hobby will still host good events and not sell themselves out to the "no standard" events.

Maybe a bully buy for fish net stockings, hot pants and stiletto boots? So they can stand on the mainstream corner and sing ROXANE!

[PogueMahone]

Re: 150th Anniversary Cycle, and how it might impact our end of the Hobby

I've got to agree with Tom. There are already huge compromises within the best events because of limitations of site, logistics and safety. Purposefully adding additional compromises only muddies the water and makes it hard to drink without adding Kool-Aid. And we all know what it means to "drink the Kool-Aid".

At the same time, I acknowledge that many of the cph's best will attend a streamer event during the 150ths for whatever reasons they may have, but that isn't the same as finding "common ground". I might attend one if the OTB raises a company or maybe go for a day if it is just close by the house. But I won't squint to see past the crap and I won't excuse it just because it is a streamer event. I'll just sigh and take a nip from my bottle and hope the visions eventually blur.

In the wake of the death of my friend Charles Heath, I will issue this challenge. So many have posted that they never met the man. Why not? If you had been at a decent event in the last 10 years, you would have crossed his path. He went everywhere. One thing Charles could not abide were those that talked a lot but never left the house. So, the challenge is this:

Support the good events. Get out of the house and off the computer and do something. Get outside your comfort zone. Push yourself to improve.

Who knows, you might meet some people and do something new and different and learn something. That was my experience at the Red River 2 event, where I first met Charles.

[Pvt_Sullivan]

Re: 150th Anniversary Cycle, and how it might impact our end of the Hobby

Support the good events. Get out of the house and off the computer and do something. Get outside your comfort zone. Push yourself to improve.

Once again Joe... there you go being honest.

I'm sorry you won't be joining in the fun at Fort Moultie this weekend. But I'll catch up with you at the Westville Work Weekend in September I think.

There we go... supporting AND attending quality events. Its people like us who are ruining the hobby for all the rest.

[MD_Independent]

Re: 150th Anniversary Cycle, and how it might impact our end of the Hobby

"Support the good events. Get out of the house and off the computer and do something. Get outside your comfort zone. Push yourself to improve."


Amen, Joe. And I'll add to said challenge. Here in the mid-Atlantic, there is a severe shortage of people who attend more than one EBUFU event a year, and that one seldom more than four hours away from their front door. Most may attend a mainstream event for a so-called 'adjunct', but that hardly counts. Anyone in the general PA/MD/DE/NJ area that is willing to do some hard travelling and hard campaigning, PM me. I have a white pickup, though it's a Chevy, not a Ford, and also a nice little car. I'll provide the transportation for nothing. Loaner gear that doesn't see enough use. Maybe even tuck you in at night. Just do an EBUFU.

Bill Birney
CRs

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: 150th Anniversary Cycle, and how it might impact our end of the Hobby

In the wake of the death of my friend Charles Heath, I will issue this challenge. So many have posted that they never met the man. Why not? If you had been at a decent event in the last 10 years, you would have crossed his path. He went everywhere. One thing Charles could not abide were those that talked a lot but never left the house. So, the challenge is this:

Support the good events. Get out of the house and off the computer and do something. Get outside your comfort zone. Push yourself to improve.

I saw Heath at two events last year, and I don't recall you being at either one of them. You might have been at the second, but I'm pretty sure I saw everyone over the four days of the first.

Why don't you guys relax? The very existence of less strenuous events takes nothing away from the ones you want to go to. And -- not to miss one of the main points I tried to make earlier -- those events are turning out a lot more potential recruits than the events featured on this forum.

That's not a slam on this forum or its events -- it's just a fact. You fellows can award yourselves all the points you want to for ignoring reality, but don't pretend that it serves the greater cause of authenticity.

I'll issue a counter challenge. Take the time you'd normally waste slamming other reenactors and spend it browsing the ORs. Then post something here we can all use.

Charles did that, too. And when most of us think well of him, that's the Charles we'll remember.

Deese, now you've made me associate your avatar with your clothing preferences. I'll never forgive you for that. :)

[Todd Watts]

Re: 150th Anniversary Cycle, and how it might impact our end of the Hobby

Authenticity should be increased all over the hobby and it does increase the longer anyone stays in it I think. At 145th Mill Springs my unit had a father (our surgeon) and son (literally a couple of days back from Iraq on leave) show up. The son likes to sleep on the ground at the fire and does a really good CW impression. The dad has a good hospital tent and set-up. They arrived after dark because the dad had to wait on his son to get off the plane and race back home, drop his 21st century gear and pack up the CW gear to drive up. The Mill Springs 145th runners were attempting to maintain real CW regs in camps and denied them the ability to drive to our site to drop the hospital stuff which really can't be packed in. Face it, in 1861 it was hauled in by wagon, not packed in on backs. Then when the son threw down his stuff to sleep by the fire the camp nazi threw a fit at him and said since it was depicting an early-war event nobody could "campaign" but had to stay inside tents. What the...?! (In all honesty the camp nazi was extremely lucky to have lived the night out because this particular guy had just been a few days earlier in heavy fighting and one more body would hardly have mattered right then.) These two great guys packed and left within an hour after arriving because the "hard-core" section of the Federal camp thought that their "authenticity" was better than anyone else's. I nearly packed and left myself because the same guys got onto me for daring to wear an animal part on my cap, a turkey feather. They decreed that no CW soldier ever did that so neither could I.

Some people in this hobby latch onto 1 tiny little idea and develop their whole world view around it and it does indeed run people off from not only their units, but the events and the hobby as a whole which is sad. I know that these Mill Springs guys were simple fools, but we all need to be careful about how we enforce our own standards upon others.

The main issue I just do not understand and evidently am not getting across here yet is why there seems to be so much - well, hate shown by a small portion of very dedicated re-enactors toward the rest of the hobby. I look at the avatars of some here and on other CW forums and quite often those that proclaim loudest about the need to be 100% or more authentic have double chins hiding the upper collar of their butternut jacket, or are obviously funding their teenage soldier impression with their current social security checks.:D I get their guns in the field and shop as well and can't quite figure out why some think a rusted barely-functional musket is authentic. I see "farbisms" in everyone including myself so I choose to educate others and myself hopefully without demeaning the people that are learning it still and driving them away completely. I have heard several "horror stories" from visitors at the Parks I do L-H at about being chastized by some re-enactors for daring to ask a 'silly' question or being turned off by the whole hobby by bad experiences with "stitch counters" in their earlier attempts to join a group. Interest will see an up-swing in the next few years surrounding the 150ths and we are all, regardless of our personal committments to our own unique standards going to have to deal with other re-enactors of all levels of authenticity as well as spectators. How we deal with each other and spectators will affect the next decades of this hobby. I am first and foremost a modern gunsmith and shooter with re-enacting a close second right now. I know this may be some sort of taboo to mention here on this particular forum and if so feel free to rebuke me, but in my own dealings with the modern gun-related issues I see real similarities between classes of modern gun owners and hunters and the re-enacting hobbiests. The end result will be the same if the sub-classes do not work together. An end, quite probably in many of our lifetimes. That's all I'll contribute here and I hope nobody has been much angered at my posts here. I respect all of you and know that my level of authenticity is not up to many of the standards of others, but maybe someday I'll climb up there with you. (But I'm still using insoles in my brogans, so there!):p

[Pvt_Sullivan]

Re: 150th Anniversary Cycle, and how it might impact our end of the Hobby

Why don't you guys relax? The very existence of less strenuous events takes nothing away from the ones you want to go to. And -- not to miss one of the main points I tried to make earlier -- those events are turning out a lot more potential recruits than the events featured on this forum.

Michael, you're a stand up guy. I know this will cause me grief, but let me try to summarize in my limited language some of the 'campaigner' feelings we are letting fly.

You are right, the existance of less strenuous events do not impact the more intense events I crave. But I do see that the constant creation of 'adjuncts' or 'carpe eventums' where although it is draped in campaigner language is really just guys in hand sewn clothes going to a mainstream reenactment and being mainstreamers is a drain on the effort and resources available to the campaigner hobby. Once or twice a year... nice, hang out with old friends. But take a look at the events advertized here (I'm going to do a scientifc analysis after Fort Moultrie is a memory) and compare the number of true EBUFU to the adjunct and carpe event numbers and it is grossly out of kilter.

I believe ( not know because its not scientific ) that trolling a mainstream event for recruits to the campaigner hobby is the least productive use of recruiting energy. Just as we don't want to lower our standards, the grand majority of mainstreamers I believe will not improve their impression (notice I didn't say kit or drill... by impression I mean the whole triad) to even attempt a campaigner event. For the small group I am part of in South Carolina, our recruiting for new members is much more productive through the use of great tools like this forum and attending and hosting history heavy events where the audience is looking for something more than the smoke and flash of battle.

That's not a slam on this forum or its events -- it's just a fact. You fellows can award yourselves all the points you want to for ignoring reality, but don't pretend that it serves the greater cause of authenticity.

A flippant reply would be "I reject your reality and substitute my own..."

But more seriously, I know this has all been done before and I am very new to the world of reenacting. I don't see attendance in events with low or non-existent standards as building anything for myself, my comrades or our organizations. They are a detractor from our personal journeys toward authenticity.

As far as serving authenticity... this is selfish but I'd rather be at an event with a smaller number of good impressions than large numbers of mediocre to bad impressions. Mixing good and bad impressions in my mind just lends to confusion for the spectator. Which is 'right' or 'authentic'? It serves 'history' better to provide as accurate an impression as knowledge and resources allow and I believe that 'history' is not well served by plopping one good impression in a dozen mediocre to bad impressions.

And with that... time to go visit Fort Moultrie and talk with the man about what we're doing this weekend.

[MD_Independent]

Re: 150th Anniversary Cycle, and how it might impact our end of the Hobby

"These two great guys packed and left within an hour after arriving because the "hard-core" section of the Federal camp thought that their "authenticity" was better than anyone else's"

Comrade Watts,
You illustrate yet another reason to keep a distance between what are and ought to be two distinct hobbies. "Hardcores" at Mill Springs? I don't know too many so-called 'authentics' who would have wasted their time going there. I'm willing to bet that the 'hardcore' who ran the two men off has never attended an EBUFU event.

I have no burning desire to see mainstream reenacting die out, nor to live on and prosper for that matter. That is a seperate hobby that I wish not to associate with. My main three complaints are as follow:

The so-called 'hardcore' who goes to five mainstream events every year, does a movie shoot or two, acts arrogant towards those with less than perfect kits, can't survive a gentle Saturday evening mist, and make those who attend solely EBUFU events look bad. This probably describes the 'hardcore' above perfectly.

The posters here who have never, EVER attended an EBUFU event, especially those who post an adjunct for something mainstream or, even better, say we should all support the 'mega-150ths' because such and such a reason. I wish to God they were banned. As it stands now, I don't remember when my subscription runs out, but when it does, as things are now, I'll probably not be re-upping.

People who tell me "Support our less-than-stellar events and help us rape history, or the hobby dies!". I would sooner drop out of the hobby and devote more time to something more worthwhile than to purposefully "perpetuate an historical lie.". I am divisive. I have no desire to ever again attend a mainstream event, no matter the numbers. I know what ten thousand clowns in one place looks like, and it's a sight I wish to never see again. Give me a good battalion, like the 28th Louisiana at IPW or 151st NY at Locust Grove, and you can keep your 'circus' division.

Bill Birney
CRs

[guad42]

Re: 150th Anniversary Cycle, and how it might impact our end of the Hobby

"I think most of us agree that for the 150th there will be a handful of mega-events that the older, more established hobby clubs will support, and which will attract most of their members, including the people who haven't been to a reenactment in a few years. You can celebrate that or run in horror from it, but if it keeps the hobby alive and history in the public mind, it's not a bad thing."

This was a nice point by Mr. Schaffer, and I appreciate it.

I don't really subscribe to the idea that campaigners are as a whole elitist per se. Most of the folks I know personally are very engaging, positive, and helpful. I think about the great level of patience some of the folks in my unit have had for me over the past 3 or 4 years as I got my act together. As a result of that experience, I tend to think that these same types of folks could have a positive effect on their less than perfect counterparts.

In addition to my love of smaller events (those I've enjoyed in this hobby and in other eras of living history) I also enjoy a good story, especially one that might make me chuckle later on. For this purpose alone, I might walk away with something I'll carry with me if I attend a couple of large scale events. And who knows, I might make a couple of friends.

Without wanting to prattle on, I will say this. About a week ago a friend of mine in the prime of his life passed away suddenly. A result of one of those random accidents, the kind of which will cause the folks he left behind to think about. Anyways, he was a very serious living historian (of the mid-20th century period) and at the same time he was exceptionally generous, not only to his friends, but to anyone he met. A small, but memorable part of his generosity was his willingess to share with his fellow reenactors (friends or no), and yeah he encountered a few "farbs" along the way. But because of his kindness, not a single person walked away without a positive learning experience. What I'm getting at is that I think I'd like to take a page out of his book, and if I could be half the kind of reenactor, and friend, that he was, well that wouldn't be so bad.

-Sam Dolan
1st Texas Inf.