150th Anniversary Cycle, and how it might impact our end of the Hobby

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: 150th Anniversary Cycle, and how it might impact our end of the Hobby

But more seriously, I know this has all been done before and I am very new to the world of reenacting. I don't see attendance in events with low or non-existent standards as building anything for myself, my comrades or our organizations. They are a detractor from our personal journeys toward authenticity.

Just as a clarification, that sounds perfectly fine to me. Like I said in my earlier message, do what you love and it will all turn out fine. In any case, I don't suggest that people go to mega-events to convert the unwashed. I do suggest that a certain percentage of those who start at mega-events will want to step up. So the more people that go to those, the more will eventually end up at events with higher authenticity levels.

I make that statement because most fellows I know who go to more authentic events started with units that focus on the less authentic. And many of those folks continue with their original units.

If you eliminated all the "p/c/h" reenactors who started with a "mainstream" unit or remain with one, you would have just about enough people left to fill the standard exhibit case in the Smithsonian. So I don't rue the existence of mainstream units or events.

Again as a clarification of my posts and not as an argument with anything you've said -- I do rue posts that have more to do with hobby ideology than history. When I look at the numbers on this Forum and see 6,600 members, 2,400 of them "active," I suspect that the reason a good-sized p/c/h event would consider itself lucky to get a tenth of those has something to do with those kinds of posts.

Many of the 2,400 come here for good information and to see whether they would like to go to some of the advertised events. Maybe it's my rosy view of humanity in general, but I don't think most are holding back because they're posers, chicken, or insufficiently in love with history. Some of them at least are holding back because they have to deal with officious, opinionated people on their day jobs, and who needs that on the weekend?

The "mean campaigner" may be a myth in the field, but not on internet fora. Of course, that tells us something, too.

[PogueMahone]

Re: 150th Anniversary Cycle, and how it might impact our end of the Hobby

Todd,

If the best example you have is Mill Springs, then I don't even know why are you are trying to make a point. Mill Springs was a bad mainstream event. I was there and put my musket in the truck after the battle Saturday because there was just no use in pretending anymore. I will say this, having helped organize and run mainstream events in the past, is there any chance the "guards" that stopped your friends were there because the event demanded the rules be enforced? If the published rules say no vehicles after a certain hour, then no vehicles. I happened to be talking to friends working the guard post at the US gate when the same guy tried three times to drive his car into the campground late Friday night. We heard three different lies as to why they should let him do so. They repeated the event rules to him and stood their ground. They were in the right because they were working for the event enforcing the event rules. The guys in the car threw a tantrum and apparently left the event. If you had witnessed it as I did, you would have laughed at them as we all did. They were stupid, childish, and selfish. The guys working the post were just doing their job.

Billy B.,

There were a lot of guys at Mill Springs on both sides that are regulars at EBUFU. It was a mainstream event and it was bad, but we had loyalties and obligations to attend to.

Michael,

I only went to two events last year and Heath was at both but you were at neither. Of the next three events I plan to attend, I expected to see Heath at two of them, at least. So ... TTttthhhhhbbbpppptttttt!!!!!!!

For all your posturing, you miss the point completely. Too many so-called campaigners have never marched further than the parking lot. Too many supporters of the EBUFU model never actually attend the events. Too many who brag to their buddies in their mainstream units about their participation on this forum don't have a damn clue what they are talking about. Too many come here and promote compromised standards and common ground when they should be promoting pushing the envelope and raising the standards bar and supporting better events through attendance.

And as long as this crap is tolerated, then YES! By God it does take away from the events and activities that I want to participate in and witness. It drains the limited resources we have to put men in the field, to use a calendar and to create and execute logistics that make the event a success. People don't commit for a good event that will require a longer drive when they can choose a half-assed event just down the road. If the half-assed event was not promoted here, the better event might be improved by the increased attention and attendance. If the half-assed event was not promoted here, it would not have that silent AC seal of approval. Face it, if an event is only promoted on Szabo's and can't get listed on the AC, it is tainted. That is a fact.

If you want to push common ground and compromise, do it someplace else. Let those of us that want to improve have our forum back.

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: 150th Anniversary Cycle, and how it might impact our end of the Hobby

For all your posturing, you miss the point completely. Too many so-called campaigners have never marched further than the parking lot. Too many supporters of the EBUFU model never actually attend the events. Too many who brag to their buddies in their mainstream units about their participation on this forum don't have a damn clue what they are talking about. Too many come here and promote compromised standards and common ground when they should be promoting pushing the envelope and raising the standards bar and supporting better events through attendance.

And as long as this crap is tolerated, then YES! By God it does take away from the events and activities that I want to participate in and witness. It drains the limited resources we have to put men in the field, to use a calendar and to create and execute logistics that make the event a success. People don't commit for a good event that will require a longer drive when they can choose a half-assed event just down the road. If the half-assed event was not promoted here, the better event might be improved by the increased attention and attendance. If the half-assed event was not promoted here, it would not have that silent AC seal of approval. Face it, if an event is only promoted on Szabo's and can't get listed on the AC, it is tainted. That is a fact.

If you want to push common ground and compromise, do it someplace else. Let those of us that want to improve have our forum back.

So what do you propose to do? Rant online? That's going to drive your numbers up? I think it will have the opposite effect.

Other events only detract from your numbers if your numbers are pitiably low to begin with. That was the fallacy with the old "TIC" complaint. If you had more than a couple of hundred guys nationwide going to higher-end events you wouldn't have to worry about competition from another self-proclaimed "p/c/h" event a few hundred miles away, or from the dreaded "mainstream" or "compromisers."

You want to purge this site of the unworthy, keep trying. But then don't complain later about how you can't get anyone to "campaign" events.

Matter of fact, I think the more you try to establish some kind of elite through indignant posts on the forums, the more you end up attracting the posers who think that's all they need to do.

I know you, and I know you have high standards and support the best of the best. But I believe that you're pursuing a rhetorical approach that backfires and ends up creating more of the very people you most disdain, who think that all they need to do to be a "campaigner" is buy the right gear and post derogatory messages about the fat kid in class.

You don't build anything up by tearing down other folks. It may make for more entertaining conversations on the OTB, but it doesn't do anything positive here.

[MD_Independent]

Re: 150th Anniversary Cycle, and how it might impact our end of the Hobby

"Billy B.,

There were a lot of guys at Mill Springs on both sides that are regulars at EBUFU. It was a mainstream event and it was bad, but we had loyalties and obligations to attend to."

Thanks, Monsieur Smotherman, for the clarification. To all, I apologize for my presumptions, but my principles remain unaltered. The EBUFU schedule should have the highest priority, at least from those who frequent this forum. Anything else should be secondary at best and has it's place elsewhere. Stricter rules regarding the much abused 'adjunct' section would be benefitial. There would be a lot less useless chatter from people who really aren't part of the c/p/h side of things.

CharlesTown or Bust!

Bill Birney
CRs

[PogueMahone]

Re: 150th Anniversary Cycle, and how it might impact our end of the Hobby

So what do you propose to do? Rant online? That's going to drive your numbers up? I think it will have the opposite effect.

Other events only detract from your numbers if your numbers are pitiably low to begin with. That was the fallacy with the old "TIC" complaint. If you had more than a couple of hundred guys nationwide going to higher-end events you wouldn't have to worry about competition from another self-proclaimed "p/c/h" event a few hundred miles away, or from the dreaded "mainstream" or "compromisers."

You want to purge this site of the unworthy, keep trying. But then don't complain later about how you can't get anyone to "campaign" events.

Matter of fact, I think the more you try to establish some kind of elite through indignant posts on the forums, the more you end up attracting the posers who think that's all they need to do.

I know you, and I know you have high standards and support the best of the best. But I believe that you're pursuing a rhetorical approach that backfires and ends up creating more of the very people you most disdain, who think that all they need to do to be a "campaigner" is buy the right gear and post derogatory messages about the fat kid in class.

You don't build anything up by tearing down other folks. It may make for more entertaining conversations on the OTB, but it doesn't do anything positive here.

I get what you are saying, but I don't think you really understand my position. I am not attempting to attract more people to the cph end of the hobby. People find their way to it on their own, just as you say. I don't ever expect the majority of the hobby to be on this end of things. I'm not a bushy-tailed optimist, I'm a realist. And the reality is that throwing open the barn door allows anything to come in whether you want it or not. That is how the skunk gets in there and drives the other livestock out. I prefer to keep the door shut, opening it only for those that don't stink the place up.

I don't think I'm tearing anyone down. I'm telling the truth. I don't have to make stuff up about anyone or any event, the truth is usually bad enough.

And there is no air of elitism about me or anything I say here, on the OTB or to someone's face. But there is no bullshit to it, either.

Here's the bottom line for me:
If you set the standard bar low, hitting it is easier. If you set it high, hitting it is harder. But look how high you got trying! And by continually attempting that high bar, you eventually reach it and are ready to set it a little higher. The guy that is hitting the low bar nevers tries to get better or improve, he just stagnates.

Why would you want this hobby to stagnate? Why not try for a higher goal constantly and consistently?

[GrumpyDave]

Re: 150th Anniversary Cycle, and how it might impact our end of the Hobby

I didn't sign up for missionary work. I'll attend the events I want to. And, I've seen enough to know which events I consider part of MY "hobby." It doesn't matter how much ice cream you stir into a pile of poo, it's still a pile of poo. I don't want anything to do with "mainstream" anything, thank you very much.

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: 150th Anniversary Cycle, and how it might impact our end of the Hobby

Why would you want this hobby to stagnate? Why not try for a higher goal constantly and consistently?

I don't want the hobby to stagnate. I don't think it's going to stagnate.

At the risk of offending you, I suspect that we may agree on more than we disagree on.

Mr. Birney, I also agree with you that this forum should focus on EBUFU events. The adjuncts will always be problematical.

Grumpy, like that's a surprise? :) I'm happy with my hobby, too. I just wish I had more than one source for oak gall ink.

I don't think any of this contradicts what I've said before. The existence of the hobby heavy side doesn't hurt the history heavy side. And getting overly excited about it just seems counter-productive.

Except when they use Sharpies. That just totally pi$$es me off.

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: 150th Anniversary Cycle, and how it might impact our end of the Hobby

Let's re-read Mess'r Hicks' post from more than a year ago. The 150th's are not getting any farther away. I think the message here is to start making plans.

I think Brian's message, among others, is that, like it or not, the "big" anniversary events will have an impact on our side of the hobby. We need to deal with that reality, whether through planning adjuncts to those larger events or by planning our a separate schedule based either on...
1) a smaller list of attendees based on "big event attrition", or
2) a series of "smaller than big, but bigger than small" events to draw back authentics wanting something better, but not seeing it materialize in any schedule.

Here's Brian's initial post:

The 150th Anniversary of the Civil War will soon be upon us. And whether we like it or not, so will the big Anniversary Megafest Events (some of you will recall the 125th Anniversary cycle). And while the 150th cycle isn’t set to start until 2011, for those who plan events, I think we need to start talking now about how the anniversary cycle will impact on our end of the hobby, and more specifically, the events we sponsor for the folks on our end of the hobby.

As much as we’d like to believe that each of the anniversary years will be just like any other year, I think we all know this won’t be true. And as much as we’d like to think that we can still hold our own events with the same level of participation while the anniversary events are on competing weekends (or close enough to them t be a distracter) I fear reality might show otherwise.

So… here’s a few questions I’ve been pondering:

1. Knowing that events really need to be planned out at least 18-24 months in advance to get on the calendar, secure the site, etc. How much into 2011 and 2012 (and the following 3 years as well) do we plan, before we start competing with the big anniversary events?

2. With these kinds of big anniversary events only coming around once in a lifetime (or … well every 25 years or so…) how will they impact on attendance at the smaller events such as we see sponsored by folks in our end of the hobby. In other words….will a greater proportion of our folks choose to travel to the big events, for that once in a lifetime experience, expending those kitchen passes, incurring the travel expenses, etc. and subsequently have to fore go the events we put on for ourselves?

3. If the premonition as foretold in No. 2 above comes to pass, then should we begin now to organize our own Authentic Units to represent our end of the hobby, and give other like minded folks a home at these big events?

4. Do we neglect to consider the impact the anniversary events will have on attendance at our own sponsored events, and continue on as if it were business as usual for planning events?

5. Have folks began considering how they will get the better impressions involved at the actual historic sites for the anniversary Living Histories? Knowing that often, the National sites don’t commit to events as far out as we do, what are the plans to overcome this obstacle as the anniversary years approach?

Any thoughts or comments provoked from waht I’ve written above?

Discussions?

[Old Reb]

Re: 150th Anniversary Cycle, and how it might impact our end of the Hobby

I saw the segment of the hobby I want to associate with on a muddy forest service road on a cold and rainy March morning in Kisatchie National Forest. I could care less about the rest.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: 150th Anniversary Cycle, and how it might impact our end of the Hobby

Hallo!

Moderator hat on.

Things often start for one reason and then continue on for other reasons.

This thread has drifted from the original question posed in the first post to seeming chest-thumpings, justifications and rationalizations for Missionary Work or non Missionary Work, and differently worded "Us versus Them" themes.

And, in generating complaints, has outlived its usefulness.

Curt