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**Ross L. Lamoreaux** · 04-12-2008, 11:34 PM

Re: Thoughts on the NPS

Jim, I know exactly where you're coming from on this one, as I've seen all the backchannel commo about it, and many of us here know all of the work you do, particularly for Shiloh to provide a quality program not just for us living historians but for the park staff and visitors. Its frustrating to do all of that work for naught, then be told there is nothing they can do about it. I believe it'll probably get worse before it gets better, as budget constraints, competing tourist attractions, as well as the placing of more importance at many NPS sites on conservation and natural resource focus rather than historical pursuits. I think that perhaps rather than lash out at a dead horse, we should expand to more willing parks or pursue other parks such as state parks. For instance, Chickamauga has always treated us with class and respect, and other state sites like Pickett's Mill and others have been the same way. I say lets propose the same quality program that you do for Shiloh and other places, to other deep south venues and see what happens. As you say, providing a much needed Federal interpretation at these southern sites is sorely needed.

**Pat.Lewis** · 04-13-2008, 06:21 AM

Re: Thoughts on the NPS

Originally posted by Jim of The SRR View Post

If I have one chief complaint about many (not all) of the National Park
Services, it is this: The NPS does not seem to acknowledge or recognize the sacrifices that most PROGRESSIVE reenactors bring to the parks programs. Nor do most parks acknowledge or recognize the difference in quality between these Progressive reenactors and other reenactors.

If I may respond from my own point of view, which happens to include both NPS experience and the same on this end of the hobby, I would argue -- and Lord knows this is going to be a popular opinion around here -- that "Progressive" (a vague term, I am aware) reenactors ain't all they crack themselves up to be. Discussing NPS arrogance, I think there might be a bit coming out on the other side of the fence here.

Are the physical impressions of better quality? Yes, to an extent, but at C/P/H living histories I still see numerous men who don't look like Civil War soldiers for one of any number of reasons. That is not to say that there aren't top notch impressions, but even they stand out among a sea of "approved vendor" purchased mediocrity. And downright poor portrayals exist in the ranks, too. If you claim you haven't seen them, you are fooling yourself. Is the "camp life," equipage, and food more accurate? Again, yes, to an extent. But Progressives still eat too much, carry too much gear (ratios of 1/2 of the men with haversacks, 1/3 of men with bayonets are called for in the Chickamauga NMP LH guidelines...I know, I wrote them...yet what proportions of either were present at the event?). I could continue, but suffice it to say that the claims to physical impression accuracy on "this end" of the hobby are, honestly, overstated.

But there remains one further, more important issue on which the average A-C'er is indistinguishable from the 'streamer down at the turbo-fest to NPS personnel: knowledge of a broader historical context for these battlefields. I have harped on our need to broaden our mid-century historical understanding (and fortunately I am not alone around here in having done so) elsewhere on these fora, so I won't here. But simply put, as a set "this end" is still as drill-headed, material-culture-obsessed, and minute tactical detail-oriented as any other group of reenactors. Those pleas to read social history, those pleas to engage themes of race, class, and gender in our portrayals consistently fall on deaf ears. Fortunately, the NPS does want to interpret these themes, and has found that they provide a rich and nuanced context to these battlefield parks. They thereby engage more visitors than those who are simply interested in the who-shot-who of long-dead white men. I swear, its true! Not everyone likes guns as much as us, and as interested as visitors might be in those boom-boom sticks, they get next to no appreciable lessons (hyperbole...I acknowledge it) from hearing what reenactors are prepared to talk to them about. What I have termed "reenactor knowledge" in the past does not mesh with the interpretative goals of the NPS, and what's more, the vast majority of reenactors, F/.../H on the paradigm scale, are resistant to accumulating the sort of knowledge that the Parks have been charged by Congress with relating to the public.

In the other thread, I suggested that we ask the parks what their interpretative goals were and conform our plans to meet those. I think that if you are looking for respect from the NPS, demonstrating a willingness to move beyond battles and bullets for once might go a long way. I re-issue an oft-repeated challenge to the A-C readership: If you want more respect, show the NPS you deserve it. Educate yourself about the "man" inside the uniform, not just the uniform itself. Share that knowledge with the public, and show the rangers that reenactors, too, want to help them with their mission.

**Abrams** · 04-13-2008, 08:19 AM

Re: Thoughts on the NPS

I will no longer support sites that do not truly appreciate our efforts. After, a recent, last-minute cancellation of an NPS Living History, I received the following comments from the NPS:

Since I believe this to refer to the Shiloh event, I feel I should respond, as I was there. :)

I can understand your frustration Jim. Everyone like to be appreciated, especially when a fair amount of time and money is spent done in research and accumulating the gear needed for an authentic impression, let alone the actual costs involved in the event itself. We do offer the NPS something they cannot easily replace.

I would like to point out that the NPS people I had contact with were Very accomodating and apologetic to me at Shiloh when I showed after the event was cancelled. I do not know if any of those people were "upper management", but they really showed their appreciation to me for showing up, and seemed genuinely interested in my return next year. They would not let me pay for my park pass, nor any events, but offered the whole thing to me free for just the sign ups. While I did take advantage of the freebies, I did toss a twenty in the contribution box in appreciation. The NPS people at Shiloh seemed to greatly appreciate my efforts to support their program, so I bear them no ill will at all. The big ranger with the pony-tail, (I am sorry, I do not recall his name,) in particular, was very nice and apologetic and made all efforts to extend me every courtesy.

I do not wish to debate how much the NPS appreciates us and our participation at the events, I have no real history of interaction to base it on. So I can only relate my own experiences. The Shiloh people are good people in my book.

I feel both we and the NPS benefit by these events. The park service gets to offer something new and unusual to draw people to the park. We get to participate on the actual sites, and possibly draw in new members to the hobby. We should have a close and mutually respect for each other's efforts to put on one of these events.

But there remains one further, more important issue on which the average A-C'er is indistinguishable from the 'streamer down at the turbo-fest to NPS personnel: knowledge of a broader historical context for these battlefields. I have harped on our need to broaden our mid-century historical understanding (and fortunately I am not alone around here in having done so) elsewhere on these fora, so I won't here. But simply put, as a set "this end" is still as drill-headed, material-culture-obsessed, and minute tactical detail-oriented as any other group of reenactors. Those pleas to read social history, those pleas to engage themes of race, class, and gender in our portrayals consistently fall on deaf ears.

Be careful of generalizations. I consider myself very well versed in the events leading up to Shiloh, the personalities of many of the major participants, and the mind set of many of the soldiers through their writings. When it comes to the history of the events at Shiloh, both before and after the actual battle, I am no neophyte. This last trip there I spent a fair amount of time in the car with Jimmy-Guide/ex-mayor/Shiloh historian and we had an excellent discussion. I talked to Boy Scouts and answered questions, handed out some hardtack, and remained in first person, as I was in full uniform. I think the boy scouts from Missouri I talked to at Fraleys Field were pleased as punch and seemed surprised to learn that it was a Missouri unit that sounded the alarm for the rest of the army. You could see it gave them a sense of pride that Missouri boys were there and played a crucial role.

Maybe not all living historians are as well versed in all aspects of living back then, but from the two events I have participated in, Shiloh and New Madrid, that seems to me to be the exception, not the rule. The people I have met did not spend all the time burning powder, in fact, that was secondary to what we were portraying. Maybe I just got lucky and fell in with "quality" living historians, as my time in this hobby is just in its infancy.

My .02 :)

**dusty27** · 04-13-2008, 08:47 AM

Re: Thoughts on the NPS

Well, this quote started out as appreciation. However, it assumes we should be thankful they allow us to spend our money for gear, food and donations for the privledge to use our PUBLIC, TAX-PAID parks! Seems sort of arrogant really.

Jim,

While we help to support the parks through taxes, what makes our experience unique is that we are able to camp, travel on non public areas and to see things from the viewpoint of the soldier, not from behind ropes.

I've experienced several things at NPS sites that would not be available to non-reenactors, the most memorable being walking Pickett's Charge in formation under arms.

I don't think one bad experience should set back our growing relationship with the NPS.

***brown*** · 04-13-2008, 09:10 AM

I, like Pat, must admit my bias up front; I have a long (and largely) loving relationship with the Park Service.
The NPS is a large and diverse organization. I have encountered park staff who despise living history to staff who love it, and most seem to fall somewhere on scale near oblivious but appreciative. However, please remember that living history for the sake of doing it is not living history. As a form of history, it must tell the story of people (not simply objects) to others who wish to learn about it. The whole point of it being �living� is that the visitors have a chance to interact with this experience.
As Gordon Jones of the Atlanta History Center said yesterday, �[o]ur visitors learn history through their hearts, not through their heads.� While he was addressing AHC visitor, I would argue that in all my years as a park service interpreter, he even better described our visitors.
During my tenure at Chickamauga, I believe that as a group of interpreters, we did some wonderful things. However, the sad reality that began to settle in and change our work, was that the living historian who returning visitors requested was the most inaccurately dressed man telling half-truths and debunked myths. The reality: he taught to the personal experience, the intangibles of the human experience that interested everyone, not just us.
The parks were founded with a mandate from Congress to preserve the land and tell the stories of the soldiers who sacrificed there. Just as the joggers want us to get out of their way, most visitors see a lecture on the [fill-in your choice of depot or arsenal here] as standing in their way to really getting there hands dirty and their modern sensibilities challenged by engaging the closest thing to the men who sacrificed on that land as most will ever get. If some of the park staff fails to interpret the history, will you be there to honor those men and preserve the land by teaching another generation its value?

**Jim of The SRR** · 04-13-2008, 09:20 AM

Re: Thoughts on the NPS

This isn't just ONE bad experience. It is about the attitude by SOME, not ALL (which I stated in my post). I am clearly not trying to make any generalizations here (again, which I stated in my post). For example, I have had great experiences with the Chickamuaga NPS site and the Picketts Mill State Park. But, I believe this has much to do with the rangers there being very hands-on with their LH programs there. The attitude seems to arise when the relationship moves from being seen a valuable volunteer to a volunteer who WORKS for us and should be thankful I allow them to volunteer for us. I also know SOME love to push their weight around with the Federal badge to the point of intimidation of even their own employees. Many simply view us as more work for them (paid employees).
These observations are not made on just ONE experience on ONE visit, but based on several years of in-depth dealings with the NPS.

Regards,
Jim Butler

**Emmanuel Dabney** · 04-13-2008, 09:42 AM

Re: Thoughts on the NPS

Since every park is different (and I like many others on this forum am a NPS employee), I'd just appreciate it if we weren't all lumped up together which is how it sometimes reads.

To agree with Pat and Lindsey, sites try to meet goals. Unfortunately there at times are competing goals from "I just want to be on the original ground and am not interested in talking to the public" to "Let me tell you absolutely every minute detail about how an Enfield rifle works." Neither of which is productive to interpretive goals as the public, in general, wants to be told something of value that appeals to them and they don't want to be bored (and quite frankly, even I as a NPS interpreter readily tell visitors should they ask about Spherical case that I'm not an arms and shot type of historian and thus the minute details of an Enfield rifle bores me too).

I'm not accusing you Jim of this, just saying in general.

In your specific case however, volunteers should be appreciated by any historic site. I'm not sure why the event was cancelled, but in my own opinion the letter seems to read as an apology and it does offer appreciation not only from the park staff but "most especially the visiting public." I wouldn't get too caught up in the part about camping at Shiloh, etc.

**dusty27** · 04-13-2008, 10:33 AM

Re: Thoughts on the NPS

Originally posted by Jim of The SRR View Post

This isn't just ONE bad experience. It is about the attitude by SOME, not ALL (which I stated in my post). I am clearly not trying to make any generalizations here (again, which I stated in my post). For example, I have had great experiences with the Chickamuaga NPS site and the Picketts Mill State Park. But, I believe this has much to do with the rangers there being very hands-on with their LH programs there. The attitude seems to arise when the relationship moves from being seen a valuable volunteer to a volunteer who WORKS for us and should be thankful I allow them to volunteer for us. I also know SOME love to push their weight around with the Federal badge to the point of intimidation of even their own employees. Many simply view us as more work for them (paid employees).
These observations are not made on just ONE experience on ONE visit, but based on several years of in-depth dealings with the NPS.

Regards,
Jim Butler

Then I would say not to title the post "Thoughts on the NPS" but be more specific to the situation and park. We are also only getting one side of why the park cancelled the event, yours.

I don't want to rattle any chains here, but the post seems like venting more than a topic for discussion.

**coastaltrash** · 04-13-2008, 10:43 AM

Re: Thoughts on the NPS

Taking Pat Lewis' words into action is part of the reason for the Instructional event at Vicksburg in Feb 2009. There is more to it than the guns and uniforms. As a side note, it always amazes me that the tourists at Vicksburg always want to know whats in the cook pot. There is more to that campaign than meets the eye, and most people take little consideration to the importance of the area between Vicksburg and Port Hudson in terms of impact to the entire Confederacy.

I'll get off my soap box on Vicksburg and move on to the topic at hand. Reading the letter, and then reading it again, I can see where it could be taken as if they were not thankful, however, I do not think that is the case. I have yet to be to an event site that some form of thanks were not given, either at the event or after. The fact that you have been asked to come back repeated times and they want to work with you should be some form of thanks. Believe it or not, as much as we all think our group is the best, we are all replaceable, there are people lining up to get on parks on anniversary weekends, and are told no or scheduled for another time. They are "our parks" in the fact that we as citizens have access to all safe areas of the park, but there is nothing said that the NPS has to let us on there, and in some cases, they could shoulder an interpretive program on their own, with the same gear we all have.

**BrianHicks** · 04-13-2008, 10:50 AM

Re: Thoughts on the NPS

Press releases in our local paper stated that the Park's Anniversary Program was canceled for the weekend due to the extreme rains during the preceding week(s) which had caused the ground to be to water soaked.

**JimKindred** · 04-13-2008, 11:04 AM

Re: Thoughts on the NPS

Originally posted by BrianHicks View Post

Press releases in our local paper stated that the Park's Anniversary Program was canceled for the weekend due to the extreme rains during the preceding week(s) which had caused the ground to be to water soaked.

In that respect the paper was absolutely correct, the ground here is still water logged. The press release stating the event was canceled was in the Saturday morning issue of the paper the morning of the event. A bit short notice in my opinion since the rains came as no surprise. At what point the decision was made or when the reenactors were informed I do not know.

**Jim of The SRR** · 04-13-2008, 01:04 PM

Re: Thoughts on the NPS

It is also not consistent with years past. In 2006 we had storms and rain friday evening. In 2007 we had nearly 2" of rain on friday evening and we still conducted our program (thank goodness for Sibleys). The cancellation in particlaur was not in question, but a series of pervasive attitudes over the years. The problem with my post is that it is like trying to describe the tone/inflections of a discussion in writing (one of the weaknesses of the internet). I know if I treated my customers in this way, I don't think I would have a job very long. Are we replaceable? That is fine, let someone else volunteer their time and money and be treated as a burden. Again, this is not a broad generalization of all NPS sites and staff. My list of quality NPS staff outweighs the bad. But, everyone needs to be able to take some criticism, including the NPS. There are no sacred cows here...especially the cows we pay for with our tax dollars!

Jim Butler

**Dignann** · 04-13-2008, 02:20 PM

Re: Thoughts on the NPS

Jim,

As others have mentioned, and you have stated, the measure of attention and committment the NPS pays to living history varies from site to site. Are we as volunteers and reenactors/living historians expendable? Perhaps we are, as there are plenty of units undoutbedly yearning to get into the parks.

If you feel that a certain NPS site has treated you unfairly, or you feel that your programs aren't appreciated and that there is a lack of consideration, give the park a call, or better yet send it a letter expressing your concerns. NPS managers never like to hear that their VIPs are unhappy. Try communicating with them instead of allowing perceived wrongs to fester.

Eric

**Duff** · 04-13-2008, 03:01 PM

Re: Thoughts on the NPS

Pat,

I understand where you are comming from about the "man" inside the uniform. When I started reenacting, I did not have the money to go out and get a AC-quality uniform. So, instead of concentrating on the uniform, I reseached the "man" and "methods" of the Civil war soldier. I ended up getting a job at a Historical Village as a historical interpriter (fancy name for "paid reenactor") and learned some period trades and other things about living in Antibellum America. I thnk this has made me a better reenactor because it gives my charicter a backround that is actually true. Plenty of reenactors say they were a blacksmith before the war, but do they actually know anything about blacksmithing? Most do not. I can hold a conversation about the basics of several period trades that I have been taught, and this is complete with my own personal experiences doing these things. This backround gives my charicter that much more "depth." I highly recommend any reenactor at least reseach the basics about some Antibellum trades. It will make your "first-person that much better.

An important thing to remember is we are not reenacting the Spartan Elite. The Volunteer during the Civil War was a civilian before the war, and went back to being a civilian after the war. Only a few stayed in the Army afterward, and unless you were a regular, you weren't in the army before.

As for the NPS, I have not had that much experience with many different battlefields, but I know that one of the rangers at Gettysburg, I can't remember his name, but he thanked us several times for our Living History and came over to our camp and talked to us all the time. He was a very nice guy and truly appreciated what we were doing. He pretty much left us alone to do our own thing and did not put any strict regulations on us other than the common sense and legal park rules. I left with a very positive experience.

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