Females on the Line

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Females on the Line

"Well, as a 21st Century man, I am more attune to things other than clothing and haircuts and the lack of obvious breasts.

What if those "breastases" are obvious, nestled in a size 50 Columbus Depot and male ?

Serious question..

No moobs here:

[Dale Beasley]

Re: Females on the Line

John,
NO, I don't think you were being a dick, but playing devils advocate, of which you made some very valid points, one in being "If she brought friends who did not have good impressions".

[boreguard]

Re: Females on the Line

John it's a good thing your upstream from Runyon !
"Dale,
No, not at all. I guess I fear the slippery slope. I've met a woman in the ranks and she did a great job! She'd be a benefit to anyone who'd have her in an ambrotype in an attempt to make the cover page of the A-C. ...but I knew it was a woman the whole time. Why? Well, as a 21st Century man, I am more attune to things other than clothing and haircuts and the lack of obvious breasts.We are all attune to things that aren't right, such as a lack of wagon trains, large numbers of animals, and real lead ahead of our powder. We ignore the planes overhead, and the distant sound of vehicles on the road. The challenge is the mindset in which we participate, nothing more nothing less. If I have to "school" myself to overlook these things...well you know where I'm going. At some point, the known presence of a woman in the ranks will cause the bahaviour of the men to change. True I'm sure, but to assume that "thier" behavior would've been to back away and point fingers at the new found oddity in the ranks would most likely not be very accurate. The recorded instances of women in ranks I believe wouldn't have been successful were it not for a pard or two, or three helping to conceal. Now for command to have knowledge of this would be a different story.As Curt mentions, it happened, but we can never prove how common it may have been. But if an entire company of men changes its behaviour to accommodate a woman in the ranks, just think what might happen if she decides to bring a friend or two.

Which brings me to the problem of accepting the registration forms and (more importantly) fees of women attempting to portray men:
If a woman meets the criteria for uniform and kit, but can't or won't conceal her femininity, event organizers might find themselves in a pickle. One would have to assume because of the importance of registration forms, their modern reason for existing, and the fact that "they" didn't fill em out that the prudent thing to do would be to fill it out properly and accurately so Heaven forbid, their was an accident of some sort that required modern attention then the proper information exist. We don't use registeration forms for anything more than a modern function of taking care of the modern details to facilitate our efforts of trying to assume the period

My hat is off to the woman I met in the line. She did a great job. To the other woman I met but didn't know it, my hat is off to you, as well.

I hope I didn't come off as a dick earlier. I have no problem with the idea of women serving in the ranks, but it MUST be done appropriately. This community will always stand at different sides of the room on what's appropriate, we are left as individuals to judge and will have a whole host of opinions as a result, however if I'm to over look the queer (read my post from a page or so back) when he's transforming from a flaming queer to a period looking soldier, then "out of uniform" respect should be paid to the woman who is doing nothing less than making similar transitionI fear the impact if is done poorly... the ultimate first-person killer! Very true

[Guy Gane III]

Re: Females on the Line

I don't care for women on the line. However, I have seen some good impressions. Good kits, good attitudes, knowing drill & customs of service.

I am just sick of Artillery & Cavalry units filled with them. READ the histories... there was ONE woman, MAAAAAAYBE two women in a unit. If they weren't found out.... officially.... Then they must have been some tough-looking looking girls. If they WERE found out, they were stripped of military clothes and sent packing. DONE.

What happened to us fighting for our women??

No wonder why I never had a date to a ball.... THEY ARE ALL OUT IN THE FIELD! x

[Guy Gane III]

Re: Females on the Line

Oh ya... and what happened to prostitutes in camp??? :wink_smil

[EVOC]

Re: Females on the Line

I have noticed several comments equating the numbers of female soldiers to black Confederate soldiers. Without getting emotional on the subject, this simply is not accurate. The Louisiana Native Guards alone was a regiment of 1,400 free black soldiers. With the inclusion of waggoneers, cooks and laborers, there were certainly tens of thousands of black Confederates in the ranks. Culling the "soldiers" from the servants may be unimportant to a 19th century military observer. I never heard of a pension being turned down due to the type of service (e.g. cook, shoe maker) or indeed, whether the soldier was a free man. Without question, black people, both free and slave, were a huge contribution to Confederate military operations in the field.

To my knowledge, the C.S.A. did not segregate units of black soldiers, other than the aforementioned unit, until 1865. Here is a link to some research that appears very objective to yours truly.

http://www.stonewallbrigade.com/articles_black_confeds.html

Sorry if this post is off topic and annoys someone, but again, the comments about small participation of black Confederate soldiers was brought up by someone else, and more than once in this thread.

[boreguard]

Re: Females on the Line

Good point EVOC, I'd raised my eyebrow when I saw the same post.
Being from Louisiana I'm fairly familar with the contribution that blacks made and the stories surrounding such. I can't help but laugh when the infamous charge at Port Hudson of some of those same blacks, that became part of the Corps Da Freak {sic} (Then Federal's)forgive spelling, is re-told. It gives the un-educated the impression, that they gloriously charged and fought the Mississippians on the bluffs of Port Hudson to a near victory, where as the truth is they were sent into the fray with nothing less than slaughter ahead of em and never had a snowballs chance.

Point to be taken from this is that they blacks or women, aren't always accurately represented in deed nor numbers, in both, stories or reenactments.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Females on the Line

Hallo!

Corps d' Afrique...

Curt

[boreguard]

Re: Females on the Line

Thank you for helping me out of a spelling bind of which I find myself more in than out.

[Mudslinger]

Re: Females on the Line

"If they WERE found out, they were stripped of military clothes and sent packing. DONE."

Guy,

This was true the majority of the time when women were discovered in the ranks. I found 2 other interesting accouts recently while researching this very subject. I'll give you two perspectives from the Kanawha Valley in Western Virginia:


Gallipolis (Ohio) Journal
August 1, 1861

"A female was last week discovered in the First Kentucky Regiment (US) dressed in male attire. She enlisted at Camp Clay under the name of John Thompson, and was about as efficient a "soger boy" as could be found in the regiment. She is at present confined in our jail by order of Col. Guthrie, but for what reason we have not yet learned. We are told her appearance is rather masculine, and "trowserloons" become her remarkably well. She is not the only woman in this community to wear britches. Her age is about 20 years. If she wishes to serve her country in the capacity of a soldier, we say turn her loose--"or any other man"."


Gallipolis (Ohio) Journal
August 8, 1861

"The Female Spy----The female discovered in the ranls of the First Kentucky Regiment (US), who was arrested as a spy and confined in jail here, was taken in charge by the officers of the 21st Ohio Regiment, who left Gallipolis for Camp Chase on Sunday last with thier command. She enlisted under the name of John Thompson, and if the Western Virginia correspondant of the Cincinnati Commercial is correct, she is certainly a dangerous character. He says:
A female spy has been discovered in the First Kentucky Regiment. She is from Ga., and enlisted at Cincinnati. She was detected by writing information in regard to the movements of our troops to the enemy. She is a member of the Knights of the Golden Circle, says she knew the punishmentof a spy is death, and is ready for her fate. She is to be sent to Columbus."


Lowery, Terry. The Battle of Scary Creek, Military Operations in the Kanawha Valley April-July1861, Quarrier Press, Charleston, WV (1982 & 1998)



"What happened to us fighting for our women?"

An excellent question of masculine principles. There is another article I read that describes a soldier in the 36th Virginia Infantry who was discovered as a female, and left by the road t fend for herself while Gen. Henry A. Wise's Brigade retreated from the Kanawha Valley. When she was asked why she wanted to fight, she replied along the lines of: "My father and brothers enlisted, and I would not stay at home alone to fend for myself". (I apologize for not having the reference posted on this, I'm in the process of locating it in the house). It is presumed in many cases that some women out of desperation hid thier gender and enlisted for mere means of survival, rather than stay at home to be raped, assaulted, starvation, etc...
Again, these are accounts solely from the Kanawha Valley region of Western Virginia, not EVERY theatre of the war. I'm in the process of researching and comprising a more thorough database on the topic for future reference to readers.


I can agree with Dennis on the opinion of registration:

"One would have to assume because of the importance of registration forms, their modern reason for existing, and the fact that "they" didn't fill em out that the prudent thing to do would be to fill it out properly and accurately so Heaven forbid, their was an accident of some sort that required modern attention then the proper information exist. We don't use registeration forms for anything more than a modern function of taking care of the modern details to facilitate our efforts of trying to assume the period."



IMO, perhaps a compromise to women portraying a soldier at events would be a required pre-registration with thier real names and info, and a "pen name" to be released on the registration form upon arriving at the event site? This would allow any needed medical (within the limits of the law) and emergency contact info to be available if there is an emergency at an event. You can also limit the number of participants to a VERY low number. These are dangerous waters to be treaded.....





Nick Miller
33rd O.V.I.
Mudslinger Mess


"Do you want to know who you are? Don't ask. Act! Action will delineate and define you."-Thomas Jefferson

[Johan Steele]

Re: Females on the Line

"Hallo!

Corps d' Afrique...

Curt"

Curt thank you for the correct, timely and respectful correction.

I am one who has mentioned the number of 1400. IMO a reasonable number garnered from some serious research a couple years ago I will reply thus:

700 odd women believed to have been in the ranks as men, a number compiled after real honest to god research. A very small percenatge; did it happen, yes? How often? Rarely.

1400 black confederate soldiers, my own number compiled after real honest to god research instead of by gosh and by golly. A very small percenatge; did it happen, yes? How often? Rarely.

The 1st Louisiana Native Guard was never paid, armed, equipped, placed on an order of battle or recognized by the CS govt; the CS govt didn't consider them soldiers... nuff said. In my years on the net I've seen the numbers from a reasonable 13,000 to the patently ridiculous 200,000 black confederate soldiers. My own research... 13-1400 who carried arms. If a number for blacks who supported the CS the number is needed it would be closer to 4 millions and IMO little of it voluntary.

IMO the AC is a place for actual historical research and documentation not thinly veiled slights. The early Corps D' Afrique had large numbers of the original 1st Louisiana Native Guard w/in its ranks, IIRC enough to form the cadre of three disciplined Regiments that served the US. No one who has studied Port Arthur or any other engagement of the various titled USCT can doubt the courage or tenacity of the Black Soldier. It is well enough documented, even among their enemies. Far more so than either black CS soldiers or women in the ranks. Approx 186,000 Black soldiers (the majority Southern) in the USCT vs 1-2 here and there Black Confederate soldiers that is the context I view the black CS soldier.

Women in the ranks, black confederate soldiers, USCT, etc all should be remembered, honored and respected. Their contributions should also be viewed in context. Show me the documentation, the CDV's, parole records etc. The actual evidence does not support great numbers of either women in the ranks or black confederate soldiers. It does support the USCT.

[Guy Gane III]

Re: Females on the Line

(Nick, thanks for the references! )


From a reenacting perspective, it seems to me that people will rush to a book to find justification to have their lady-friend in the ranks instead of promoting more authentic civilian impressions. If you must turn to women to fill out your ranks, then you have no idea of how to recruit.

:confused_((sniff)) ((sniff)) ... DING!...... your impression is OVERDONE! :wink_smil

[Mudslinger]

From a reenacting perspective, it seems to me that people will rush to a book to find justification to have their lady-friend in the ranks instead of promoting more authentic civilian impressions.

Very objective, but can I agree with your opinion, but where do you see justification? I surely do not. IMO women should be left to civilan impressions. Perhaps I should have been more specific with the sources, so here they are:

Canfield, S.S., History of the 21st Ohio Regiment (Toledo: Vroorman, Anderson, and Bateman, 1893)

Articles. "Gallipolis (Ohio) Journal, August 1 & 8, 1861" (Ohio Historical Society, 1861)

Ryan, Daniel J., The Civil War Literature of Ohio, (Cleveland, OH, 1911)

Albert D. Richardson, The Secret Service, The Field, The Dungeon, and The Escape (Hartford, Conn.: American Publishing Co., 1865), p. 175.


In no way can I say that a major influx of females in the ranks should be permitted on a regular basis, due to the percentage of women in the ranks(1% or less). I've been to events where women served as Infantry, and know I, as well 60 others, were unaware that "Private Fred" was a women, until after the event was over.

If you must turn to women to fill out your ranks, then you have no idea of how to recruit.

God forbid....if there is not enough "mainstream " units that have done this for years (i.e. barrel chested female troopers, gunners, etc...). I won't name them, we're all aware of who they are. I'm thankful, By God, to say we don't recruit women, and prohibit such. There's still not enough justification to have women in the ranks as often as most would think. I was just giving an opinion of how event organizers could possibly handle the situation, if it arises, but I'm sure the occasion wil be EXTREMELY rare.


Nick Miller
33rd O.V.I.
MudslingerMess

"Errors of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it. "-Thomas Jefferson

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: Females on the Line

Gents-

This might sound crazy, but as far as quality events are concerned, can their be a limit (limit of one or two) if galtroops are allowed? If she is found-out to be a woman, then kick her out or even better, initiate period legal proceedings. That way, it would still allow for the possibility of historically-accurate representation, but limit the amount of participation by women.

Just my 2 cents... take it for what it's worth... Johnny

[HOG.EYE.MAN]

Re: Females on the Line

Anyone besides me feel the need to hurl after reading this thread? :sick:

Seriously.....