New Visitor Center Dress Hat, Folded on the Right Side?

[davidf]

I visited the new visitor center recently, and I noticed that in the 1st Day of Gettysburg stuff, there was a U.S. Dress hat (for the Iron Brigade). But my friend then asked me, about what side the hat was folded for the infantry. And I said it should be the left. Being part of the 2nd Wisconsin, we always did the left. I remembered that because I was convenient when doing shoulder arms in the Baxter's manual. But, behold, this ORIGINAL (as far as I could tell) one was folded on the RIGHT SIDE. For some reason, there is a picture of this exact one on the Wiki presently:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Hardee_Hat.jpg

description: Hardee hat with infantry adornment; the brim on this hat at Gettysburg National Military Park is pinned inconsistent with regulations.

Does anyone know more about this particular hat? Can anyone possibly conclude why this hat would be like this? Would a soldier disobey orders and fold up the other side? Is it possible that hat isn't original or it has had its cord replaced (because don't the other two branches of the army have their right side folded up too?)? At the museum, it looked original.

I am interested in hearing what you all have to say about this?

[Dignann]

Re: New Visitor Center Dress Hat, Folded on the Right Side?

David,

Did the label say that the hat is attributed to a member of the Iron Brigade, or is it simply representative of the style of hat worn by its members?

See attached crop of members of Co. I, 7th Wisc. Notice the position of shoulder arms and also note a few fellows with their hats turned up on the right side.

Eric

[kaelin]

Re: New Visitor Center Dress Hat, Folded on the Right Side?

Erik,
What type of image is this(dege/fero/tin), remember that most images are reversed so actually the hats would be folded on the left, since shoulder arms is right shoulder...right? Correct me if I am wrong.

Kaelin Vernon

[Dignann]

Re: New Visitor Center Dress Hat, Folded on the Right Side?

What type of image is this(dege/fero/tin), remember that most images are reversed so actually the hats would be folded on the left, since shoulder arms is right shoulder...right? Correct me if I am wrong.

Kaelin,

They're holding their Austrians per Baxter/Scott/Chandler, etc, which is on the left shoulder, except for the one visible NCO out front. The photo is not reversed.

Eric

[davidf]

Re: New Visitor Center Dress Hat, Folded on the Right Side?

I wasn't saying the reason for having the left side folded up was just because of shoulder arms in Baxters, I was just saying that is how I remembered the fold being usually on the left. Also, don't regulations say the left side for infantry?
As for who the hat is attributed to, I beleive when I was there it just labeled the hat for what it was, and didn't attribute it to anyone. But I could be wrong. So, why did the men counter regulations sometimes? Was would want to make them fold up the other side?
I looked in the Columbia Rifles Research Compendium II and found that it does not mention this exception to the rule in the chapter about Enlisted Men's Hats in the Eastern Theater.

Then again, we have to remember that there are always exceptions to the rule in history.

[davidf]

Re: New Visitor Center Dress Hat, Folded on the Right Side?

Kaelin,

They're holding their Austrians per Baxter/Scott/Chandler, etc, which is on the left shoulder, except for the one visible NCO out front. The photo is not reversed.

Eric

Yea, and if you look at where the cartridge box slings are placed, they are in the proper place, verifying that this is not a reversed pic.

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Re: New Visitor Center Dress Hat, Folded on the Right Side?

I wasn't saying the reason for having the left side folded up was just because of shoulder arms in Baxters, I was just saying that is how I remembered the fold being usually on the left. Also, don't regulations say the left side for infantry?
As for who the hat is attributed to, I beleive when I was there it just labeled the hat for what it was, and didn't attribute it to anyone. But I could be wrong. So, why did the men counter regulations sometimes? Was would want to make them fold up the other side?
I looked in the Columbia Rifles Research Compendium II and found that it does not mention this exception to the rule in the chapter about Enlisted Men's Hats in the Eastern Theater.

Then again, we have to remember that there are always exceptions to the rule in history.

Take speculation for what it's worth...but my guess is that the right side was folded up to assist in the aim position.

The practice of pinning the right side of hats up extends beyond just "Dress-Hats" and can be seen in a number of images (US & CS) with regards to slouches as well.

Sorry I don't have documentation to back this assumption up.:confused_

Paul B.

[Dignann]

Also, don't regulations say the left side for infantry?

Does it? I checked the 1861 Army Regs and could not find the reference to pinning hats.

So, why did the men counter regulations sometimes? Was would want to make them fold up the other side?

Don't know, but the majority of the men in the photo don't have either side pinned. Personal preference, I suspect.

I looked in the Columbia Rifles Research Compendium II and found that it does not mention this exception to the rule in the chapter about Enlisted Men's Hats in the Eastern Theater.

I don't own that reference, so I'm not familiar with it. What does it say about pinning the side of a hat?

Eric

[Jefferson Guards]

Re: New Visitor Center Dress Hat, Folded on the Right Side?

From the 1861 regulations:

1479. For General Officers--gold cord, with acorn-shaped ends. The brim of the hat looped up on the right side, and fastened with an eagle attached to the side of the hat; three black ostrich-feathers on the left side a gold-embroidered wreath in front, on black velvet ground, encircling the letters U.S. in silver, old English characters.

(it then went on to describe officers of the various branches with reference to the above with the subsitution of the branch insignia for the U.S.)

1488. For Enlisted Men, except companies of Light Artillery--the same as for officers of the respective corps, except that there will be but one feather, the cord will be of worsted, of the same color as that of the facings of the corps, three-sixteenths of an inch in diameter, running three times through a slide of the same material, and terminating with two tassels, not less than two inches long, on the side of the hat opposite the feather. The insignia of corps, in brass, in front of the hat, corresponding with those prescribed for officers, with the number of regiment, five-eighths of an inch long, in brass, and letter of company, one inch, in brass, arranged over the insignia.

Now it does go on to say the following, but it is in reference to Hospital Stewards:

1489. For Hospital Stewards the cord will be of buff and green mixed. The wreath in front of brass, with the letter U.S. in Roman, of white metal. Brim to be looped up to side of hat with a brass eagle, having a hook attached to the bottom to secure the brim-on the right side for mounted men and left side for foot men. The feather to be worn on the side opposite the loop.

Here is the link if you wish to explore it for yourself:

http://members.tripod.com/howardlanham/unireg.htm

[FlatLandFed]

Re: New Visitor Center Dress Hat, Folded on the Right Side?

Erik,
What type of image is this(dege/fero/tin), remember that most images are reversed so actually the hats would be folded on the left, since shoulder arms is right shoulder...right? Correct me if I am wrong.

Kaelin Vernon

But are not the infantry horn insignia on the fronts of the hats facing the proper direction, indicating that the image as presented has not been reversed?

I'm a registered Independent, but I'll go "to the right" on this issue 8^)

Paul Hadley

[kaelin]

Re: New Visitor Center Dress Hat, Folded on the Right Side?

Gentlemen,
You are correct...sorry, did not look closely at detail, thank you for pointing that out.

kaelin vernon

[Prodical Reb]

Re: New Visitor Center Dress Hat, Folded on the Right Side?

I'm unfamilar with this arms postition in the manual of arms; They are holding the butt of the rifle in the palm of the left hand, arm extended, with the rifle resting on the left shoulder with the rifle nearly vertical. This position is not "Support arms" nor is it similar to "Right shoulder shift"; the lock plate is near waist level instead of near the ear. What position is it?

Cartridge boxes are on the right, slung over the left shoulder.

[davidf]

Re: New Visitor Center Dress Hat, Folded on the Right Side?

I'm unfamilar with this arms postition in the manual of arms; They are holding the butt of the rifle in the palm of the left hand, arm extended, with the rifle resting on the left shoulder with the rifle nearly vertical. This position is not "Support arms" nor is it similar to "Right shoulder shift"; the lock plate is near waist level instead of near the ear. What position is it?

Cartridge boxes are on the right, slung over the left shoulder.

Those guys in the picture are in the Shoulder Arms position for the Baxters Manual. It was used by the 2nd Wisconsin in the beginning of the war, as did several other regiments in the first half of the war. I don't think any Confederates ever used it.

[pgoudeau]

Re: New Visitor Center Dress Hat, Folded on the Right Side?

From the 1861 regulations:

1479. For General Officers--gold cord, with acorn-shaped ends. The brim of the hat looped up on the right side, and fastened with an eagle attached to the side of the hat;

1488. For Enlisted Men, except companies of Light Artillery--the same as for officers of the respective corps, except that there will be but one feather, the cord will be of worsted,

If I read the regulations right, the hat should be pinned up on the right for enlisted men?

The question then arises, what of these pictures taken for the Quartermaster General in 1866?
http://www.qmmuseum.lee.army.mil/1866uniform/

I'm a bit confused about what side is correct.

[flattop32355]

Re: New Visitor Center Dress Hat, Folded on the Right Side?

Consider what era, and what drill manuals, are being considered, as well as what unit at what time in the ACW.

When Scott's, etc. manuals were being used, Shoulder Arms was on the left. Therefore, it made sense to have the left side of the dress hat pinned up to avoid displacing the hat with the weapon.

Later manuals, with Shoulder Arms on the right, would have reversed this.

Firing positions were always with the weapon on the right, so that had no bearing.

Iron Brigade used Scott's for most, if not all, of the war, contrary to most other units using the more "modern" Hardee's or Casey's.