New Visitor Center Dress Hat, Folded on the Right Side?

[davidf]

Re: New Visitor Center Dress Hat, Folded on the Right Side?

Consider what era, and what drill manuals, are being considered, as well as what unit at what time in the ACW.

When Scott's, etc. manuals were being used, Shoulder Arms was on the left. Therefore, it made sense to have the left side of the dress hat pinned up to avoid displacing the hat with the weapon.

Later manuals, with Shoulder Arms on the right, would have reversed this.

Firing positions were always with the weapon on the right, so that had no bearing.

Iron Brigade used Scott's for most, if not all, of the war, contrary to most other units using the more "modern" Hardee's or Casey's.

That makes sense. But that still doesn't explain the the 7th Wisconsin pic then. As far as I know, they used Scott's, but yet the hat is folded on the other side. This is a very interesting subject I think. I always assumed it was the left side, but now maybe not.

I think we need more pictures to look at. When in doubt, go to the pictures. I'll see what I can dig up.

[Adjutant]

Re: New Visitor Center Dress Hat, Folded on the Right Side?

From what I can see in the photograph:
5 men with the right side pinned.
2 men with the left side pinned.
9 men with neither side pinned.
Is it possible they were as confused as we are? If you are representing Company I of the 7th it looks like you have some variety for choice (at least for 1862, which is, I believe, the time this photograph was taken).

I have always assumed that the passage in Army Regs under Hospital Steward was a missprint and it was intended that the left side was to be pinned up for all footmen (infantry).

[Dignann]

Re: New Visitor Center Dress Hat, Folded on the Right Side?

Color guard of the 2nd Wisc, also taken during the spring/summer of 1862. Hats pinned up on the right side.

Eric

[Prodical Reb]

Re: New Visitor Center Dress Hat, Folded on the Right Side?

.....Is it possible they were as confused as we are? ....
......I have always assumed that the passage in Army Regs under Hospital Steward was a missprint and it was intended that the left side was to be pinned up for all footmen (infantry).

It was never corrected by General order or reprinting, so it must be right

Color guard of the 2nd Wisc, also taken during the spring/summer of 1862. Hats pinned up on the right side.

Eric

6 out of 7 looped up! last fellow on the LS of pic has niether side looped up.

I believe both, either or niether/none would be correct. Personal preference being the deciding factor. pictures prove this despite what regs state. Whether one was in the field or in garrison mattered also. Bored officers and Sgt Majors in garrison that have nothing better to do than decide which side should be looped up have always been the soldiers "diaper"(on his A** and full of SH**)! I would bet that one could pin what ever side pretty quickly just prior to an inspection or parade for uniformity's sake.

[CJSchumacher]

Re: New Visitor Center Dress Hat, Folded on the Right Side?

Color guard of the 2nd Wisc, also taken during the spring/summer of 1862. Hats pinned up on the right side.

Eric

In this photo, note the bayonets. They are actually reversed so it appears they are on the opposite side. They posed with rifles on their left side.

The hardees here, then, would actually have the left side pinned up.

[Dignann]

Re: New Visitor Center Dress Hat, Folded on the Right Side?

They are actually reversed so it appears they are on the opposite side.

I do believe you're right. Good eyes. Look at the bugles on the front of their hats. In the full view, a few of these guys apprently even went so far as to put their cap boxes on their left side, so that they'd appear correct in the reversed image.

Eric

[FlatLandFed]

Re: New Visitor Center Dress Hat, Folded on the Right Side?

Thanks for the continuing discussion. I've seldom worn the hunting horn on my headwear, so guess my brain was thinking of my mug in the mirror and "reversed" what I thought I was seeing in the photo. Yes, of course it is from a reversed image -- still interesting that guys pinned up either side for this photo. If some went to the trouble to reverse accoutrements I wonder if some didn't get the memo to instead pin up the "other" side of their hats just for the photo and thus are wearing theirs the "correct" way but out of step with their mates?

I'll be at an event in June that requires the issue dress hat but don't think we'll have much hat brass. "If" we are asked to pin up a side, I'll make clearance for the right-shoulder-shift movement and pin accordingly if it appears the regs weren't always enforced.

Paul Hadley

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: New Visitor Center Dress Hat, Folded on the Right Side?

Hallo!

I was just heading out the door, but...

A quick way to determine reversed images is to look at the "button line."
An "unreversed" image will show that the coat or jacket or trouser front buttons right-over-left (think of the right hand being inserted.
If the garment appears to be buttoned "left-over-right," the image is reversed.

(A point of Trivia. NUG, right-over-left is "male fashion," while left-over-right is "female "fashion. ;) :) :)

Regarding brim pinnings... look backwards. ;) :)

IMHO, the 1861 regulations are not specific on which side of the enlisted dress hat because the "fashion" had been established by the 1858 regulations when the hat was introduced. ( For officers though, General Orders No. 4 dated February 26, 1861 called for artilery and infantry officers to change from the same side as the men's, to being looped up on the right with the feathers on the left.)

They called for enlisted "foot" troops to pin them up on the left, and mounted troops to pin them on the right.

I am rusty, but I think that again flopped during the War as well... (?) I believe I have the War time order flopping the fashion, until 1868... and I will look later to share it if I find it (as our 1866ish "Quartermaster" model poses in accordance with the 1858 regs).

HOWEVER, as with many regulations duirng the War, what was written was not always what was done. So, one had "regulations," and one had what less strict colonels and captains allowed the men to get away with...

Here is an image of my great-great grandfather Andrew Miller of Company M of Marcus Rreno's 12th PA Cavalry in 1862.

Per the still standing 1858 regulations, his mounted services (cavalry) dress hat is pinned on the right. The image is reversed, and the sabre "fudged" to apper on the left hand side (note the seemingly "left-over-right" buttoned jacket..)


Curt

[Carolann Schmitt]

Re: New Visitor Center Dress Hat, Folded on the Right Side?

A quick way to determine reversed images is to look at the "button line."
An "unreversed" image will show that the coat or jacket or trouser front buttons right-over-left (think of the right hand being inserted.
If the garment appears to be buttoned "left-over-right," the image is reversed.

I'm assuming "right-over-left" refers to the right side of the photograph, and not the right side of the garment?

(A point of Trivia. NUG, right-over-left is "male fashion," while left-over-right is "female "fashion.

While right-over-left (left-over-right in an unreversed image) is the common closure for women's clothing today, it is not necessarily true during the period. Women's clothing in the mid-19th century can fasten right-over-left or left-over-right, with left-over-right (just like men's clothing) being slightly more common. Gender specific closures don't become standardized until much later in the century when ready-made clothing is more common. In other words, you can't rely on how the bodice closes on a woman's dress to determine if the image has been reversed. :)

Regards,

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Re: New Visitor Center Dress Hat, Folded on the Right Side?

A quick way to determine reversed images is to look at the "button line."

An "unreversed" image will show that the coat or jacket or trouser front buttons right-over-left (think of the right hand being inserted.

If the garment appears to be buttoned "left-over-right," the image is reversed.

Let's not jump to conclusions...in remembering our recent discussion on jackets; both the Pvt. H. Redwood and Lt. J.V. Bidgood jackets have buttons/buttonholes on the reverse "wrong" side. A quick determination of these images, might lead one to make a false statement about the jackets.

I would agree that looking at the lay of the jacket could serve as a tool or guidelines, but if the construction of the jacket were not to the "convention", then this might lead the examiner to a wrong conclusion.

Examinations of images must take into account the entire culture of the image...as evidenced in the recent reply about the 2nd Wisconsin...and a review of their rifle positions, cap pouch, dress hat brim, dress hat ornamentation...etc.

Paul B.

[Pennvolunteer]

Re: New Visitor Center Dress Hat, Folded on the Right Side?

From "US Army Headgear, 1855-1902" from the Smithsonian Institution by Edgar M. Howell, it states, "The question as to which side of the hat was to be looped up and by whom is somewhat confusing. The 1855 hat was to be looped up on the right side by both officers and enlisted men. (G.O. No 13, WD, 15 Aug 1855) The 1858 model as originally authorized was to be looped up on the right side by all personnel except officers and enlisted men of the Infantry and Artillery. (GO No 3, WD, 24 Mar 1858) General Order 4, War Department, of 26 Feb 1861, stated that the infantry and artillery officers were to loop up the brim on the right, while General Order 6, War Department, of 13 March 1861, stated that the brim was to be looped up on the right by mounted men and on the left by foot soldiers. And finally, in the official Quartermaster uniform photographs taken in 1865-66, all hats on mounted and dismounted personnel alike are looped up on the left."

This would indicate it depends on how well one kept track of general orders regarding the looping of brims while one is getting shot at....

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: New Visitor Center Dress Hat, Folded on the Right Side?

Hallo!

"Let's not jump to conclusions...in remembering our recent discussion on jackets; both the Pvt. H. Redwood and Lt. J.V. Bidgood jackets have buttons/buttonholes on the reverse "wrong" side. A quick determination of these images, might lead one to make a false statement about the jackets.

I would agree that looking at the lay of the jacket could serve as a tool or guidelines, but if the construction of the jacket were not to the "convention", then this might lead the examiner to a wrong conclusion."

Agreed...
Which is why I said "A quick way.." and not "The way..."

I was referring to the issue Federal dress coat, mounted services jacket, and fatigue blouse.

Yes, the caveat is needed. Thanks.

Curt
Bayesian Inference Mess

[RJSamp]

Re: New Visitor Center Dress Hat, Folded on the Right Side?

From "US Army Headgear, 1855-1902" from the Smithsonian Institution by Edgar M. Howell, it states, "The question as to which side of the hat was to be looped up and by whom is somewhat confusing. The 1855 hat was to be looped up on the right side by both officers and enlisted men. (G.O. No 13, WD, 15 Aug 1855) The 1858 model as originally authorized was to be looped up on the right side by all personnel except officers and enlisted men of the Infantry and Artillery. (GO No 3, WD, 24 Mar 1858) General Order 4, War Department, of 26 Feb 1861, stated that the infantry and artillery officers were to loop up the brim on the right, while General Order 6, War Department, of 13 March 1861, stated that the brim was to be looped up on the right by mounted men and on the left by foot soldiers. And finally, in the official Quartermaster uniform photographs taken in 1865-66, all hats on mounted and dismounted personnel alike are looped up on the left."

This would indicate it depends on how well one kept track of general orders regarding the looping of brims while one is getting shot at....

The DAVIS hat, M1855, was for Mounted services work (loop up the right).......The Hardee Hat, M1858 was adopted by the Infantry...

[RJSamp]

Re: New Visitor Center Dress Hat, Folded on the Right Side?

Color guard of the 2nd Wisc, also taken during the spring/summer of 1862. Hats pinned up on the right side.

Eric

No, the hats are pinned up on the LEFT side (well, 6 out of 7 are).

Look at the Hat Bugles, Bayonets, and front frock coat buttoning.

[TKlas]

Re: New Visitor Center Dress Hat, Folded on the Right Side?

Hi David & all,

David as Eric pointed out the reverse image of the color guard will give you a good glimpse at what the men did do - it really comes down to personal preference among the men of Gibbon's Western Brigade. Many have the hats pinned up on the left side in order to get the brim out of the way for Chandler's shoulder arms, support arms, and carry arms on the left side. The color guard photograph and a similar one of the NCO's of Compnay "E" 2nd Wisconsin taken during the same time at their camp near Falmouth, Virginia document the use of pinning the hat up with the left side.

There were also soliders whom pinned up their right side of hat to get the brim out of the way for the To the right shoulder shift position as well in which the rifle musket will sit on the shoulder via the hammer. The field photograph of the Northwest Tigers of Company "I" 7th Wisconsin in the Summer of 1862 shows soldiers wearing their dress hat with either side being pinned up depending on the preference of the soldier. http://www.wisconsinhistory.org/whi/...ge.asp?id=4978

While marching all these positions wearing a dress hat can be cumbersome with a dress hat that is not pinned up. I usually wear my dress hat without pinning up the sides as this can also be a documented practice by viewing the picture of the Grant County Grays, Company C 2nd Wisconsin Vols. taken during the summer of 1862, which will give you another view of the variety of ways the soldiers in the 2nd did wear their dress hat. http://www.wisconsinhistory.org/whi/...e.asp?id=12354.

The ultimate in ease can be documented by the studio photograph of Joseph Mann of Company F, 2nd Wisconsin in which Mann has both sides of his dress hat pinned up. As with all these photograhps, they are in the holdings of the Wisconsin Historical Society Archives.

I hope this helps,

Tom