Weight Standards?

[Spinster]

Re: Weight Standards?

"What is possible is for the participant to look at all aspects of what is required and make an honest assessment of his or her own ability to meet those physical challenges, be they soldier or civilian."

The quality impression, IMHO, would amend that slightly to read:

What is possible is for the potential participant to look at all aspects of what is required and make an honest assessment of his or her own ability to meet those physical and mental challenges, be they soldier or civilian.

Under 'Robert's Rules of Order' I believe that's called a 'friendly amendment'. ( Not that any of us can be accused of being orderly) And most certainly accepted---as a far more comphrehensive statement.

I've often found that whatever 'mileage' Curt comes up with, his is the most accurate :D

[LejeuneMarine]

Re: Weight Standards?

Friends,
I am very pleasantly surprised that so many of you have writen in with your opinions on the subject. My goal is not to have the older, heavier gentlemen excluded but to bring up the issue for a good discussion (and mentioning the F word sometimes is the only way to get folks hot about an issue). In my opinion, I believe that discussion is one of the best forms of education that we can have to better ourselves and our impressions. I like the debates and I hope you do as well. We are stronger every time that we discuss the difficult issues with our challenging hobby that I have loved for over 15 years. Don't shy away from these discussions but let your voice be heard.

I must admit that as an active duty Marine Corps Officer, physical fitness is a part of my job. Most folks out there do not have this requirement placed on their heads and modern American culture is not much help. However, no matter how you want to see it... the truth is that the folks that we try to depict were very different from us physically. We may not (or can not) be able to achive this but we should never stop striving for it if we are dedicated to our cause.

Remember... that this is our hobby (passion) and it is as only as good as we make it. I look forward to seeing everyone in the field at Pickett's Mill for those who can make it. Please take the time to evaluate your physical condition here in the near future. If not for the hobby.... I hope you will for your health. Thanks for the honest debate.

Your friend and Semper Fidelis,
Mike Pretus

[Secesh]

Re: Weight Standards?

Very good points Mike! I hope to make it out to Georgia in the future, and just may have the honor to meet you. Best regards and thanks for your service to our Country.

[coastaltrash]

Re: Weight Standards?

Mike,
Some of the better living HISTORIANS I know are over weight. I would rather see a larger guy with a great deal of knowledge than a guy who hasn't cracked a book falling in the ranks, and I've marched next to both. One of my messmates has recently impressed me by dropping 30 lbs or more. Looks better and still going.

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Weight Standards?

I appreciate all of the PM's, invites and words of support from serious members of this community whom I truly respect. Y'all have always treated me so very well.

At the end of the day, I have got to look at myself and ask

"Am I an honest, accurate representative of mid-19th Century man which is worthy of participation at the elite levels of the hobby ?"

Then police myself accordingly.

and even though I might not personally agree....if you're not an accurate representation....thats okay too, if your a good solider.... cause ain't no one going to say anything or run you off.

Folks just see it different thats all...I see where the bar is set and want to reach up for it, not have it lowered to meet my shortcomings.

Off to the treadmill

[Michael Hampton]

Re: Weight Standards?

I have only just found this site while looking to improve my impression and while I would say I probably fit the ideal at 24 yrs, 5'11" 142# I am far outshined in knowledge by several of the guys who are a lot stockier and I have to say at this point they can march me into the ground. Being a "good" weight and age has given me no advantage over them.

It just seems to put me out of the running for a lot of good used gear due to my need for a smaller size than most of what I have seen offered.

[BrianHicks]

Re: Weight Standards?

"In a perfect world...." all participants would be the right age, the proper weight and height, have the most authentic uniform items and accouterments, and have a great attitude and knowledge level.

But we all know this isn't a perfect world. And of those desired qualities listed above, which are the most important elements?

Of all of those, I wold rather have participants at events with the right attitude, rather than the perfect weight, age, etc.

In my perspective, a person with they proper attitude will have (or will be seeking to purchase when they can afford it) the better quality uniform items, and will be seeking the requisite knowledge for that particular events impression.

I've told many first time campaigners whom had worried over the quality of their impression, that to come with a right attitude is more important than replacing that less than quality pair of trousers or jacket (no... we really don't count stitches, nor do we have a checklist of the top makers of items, and if your stuff wasn't made by so and so, you can't participate). All we ask is that the person strive to meet the impression guidelines, offer loaner gear to help if necessary, and come with a good attitude and be willing to live the soldiers life, non-stop from beginning to end of the event.

Me? I'm not worried about my weight. At 5'11.5" and weighing 165. If anything... it's teh fact that I have gone gray (well... white actualy) at such an early age. But I'm not so vain that I'm dying the hair just for a weekend hobby.

[Pat.Lewis]

Re: Weight Standards?

I was holding off on this thread doing some thinking about what I wanted to see as both a reenactor but more importantly as a historian and interpreter. For sham battles and A-C type events when we do what we will for our own entertainment (mostly), do I want to exclude people who would create a good scenario, fluff numbers, or build the type of experience we want? No. If you think you can play, your pards want you to play, and the organizers are alright with you playing, then play.

But, if I'm doing interp for a living history group on NPS property or elsewhere my goals and expectations skyrocket. When I present reenactors to the public, I expect "living history." Nothing is more embarrassing or frustrating for me as a ranger than to have to make excuses for or waste valuable talking time discussing impression inaccuracies, being overweight included. But by that same token, I have the same problem with bad uniforms (which most on here don't worry me about), or methods (hint, hint: battles didn't get fought out of the pages of Hardee's, folks...and that's something the readership here DOES need to learn).

This might not be a popular opinion here but I'll say it anyway, I would rather have tiny numbers of young skinny guys for one of my programs rather than a hit-or-miss larger group. When the audience changes from "us" to the public I'm trying to educate, I make no concessions with my scholarship, the message I want to convey, or my presentation standards. I want reenactors behind me who have disciplined themselves and their impressions to the same degree. Parks have a duty to the American people, and bad impressions -- whatever the reason -- fail in that duty.

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Weight Standards?

I was starting to feel like a retard on a island, instead of just a retard.

Mr. Lewis if I ever have the opportunity and pleasure to buy you a drink... dude you can count on it.

[OldKingCrow]

Some period, material references to fat people:

The Ohio Fat Boy → March 14, 1861
--The body of Vantile Mack, the celebrated Ohio Fat Boy , who died in New York while exhibiting at Barnum's Museum, passed through Pittsburg on Thursday, by railroad. It was marked, "Agent Ohio Fat Boy, Darlington, Pennsylvania," and was described on the bill of lading as follows: "One Fat Boy dead. Double first class passenger freight. Weight, 600 pounds.--Freight, $2.50." The weight, as given above, includes the coffin and box.

November 5, 1864 Joseph Lake, a "fat boy," twelve years old and weighing three hundred and eighty- five pounds, died at his home in Chichester, New Hampshire, on the 19th, of typhoid fever. He took cold while on an exhibition tour.

December 27, 1864 Miscellaneous Miss. Brand, who is called the "Miss. Nightingale of New Orleans," has just made her appearance in England. She is reported to have spent three years in attendance upon the sick and wounded Confederate prisoners in that city, and to have been, at length, expelled by General Canby.
"Tom Thumb" and his family have, at last, gone to Paris. The General became disgusted on account of the public exhibition of a new fat boy — a little chap only ten years old, and already nearly five feet high, and weighing about two hundred and sixty pounds.

Charleston Mercury - March 5, 1861 I have given you the pictures of several representative gentlemen here. I will now hold up a representative of the Charleston Bar, in the person of James L. Petigru, Esq. Mr. Petigru is, I believe, a native of this city. --He is now about sixty years of age, about five feet ten inches in height, stout, without redundancy of flesh, broad fat face, very broad forehead but low, ponderous brow, very small eyes and deep set; indeed the eye is so small one can hardly determine the color without close examination, but they shine, nevertheless, like far distant stars. Mr. Petigru is a first-class lawyer, and an orator unsurpassed in this country.

$10 reward. May 14, 1861--Ranaway from my residence, on 2d street, between Marshall and Clay, on Thursday last, a young Woman named Emeline. about 17 years old, of a ginger-bread color, about five feet high, quite fat, round face, thick head of hair, and inclined to be straight when combed.--She had on when she left a yarn hood, dark calico dress, and white apron. I think she is somewhere about the city working by the day, or trying to hire herself out. The above reward will be given for her delivery to me at my house above stated, or at the store of Messrs. Joyner & Co., No. 30 Main street, if taken in the city, and $20 if taken in the county.
my 9--1w* miles Cary.

The Weather August 8, 1863 Richmond Daily Disptach
has at length arrived at melting heat. Fat men are but skins of grease, literally running away as they attempt locomotion, and lean ones are so dried and porched that their bones rattle as skeletons in the wind when they move about. We may expect a thunder storm at any moment, judging from the flying clouds and occasional guate of wind.

Harper's Ferry, Va. May 23, 1861. The men are all in good health and in fine spirits. Rations plenty, and the "boys" are getting fat and saucy on the "Confederate States." We have plenty of good fresh beef, and good Virginia bacon, rice, beans, capital bread, coffee, sugar, salt, vinegar, and such etceteras as will make up a good fare. If our boys can't whip Abraham's lank Yankees, it would be a wonder. There are not enough men in and around Washington to take Harper's Ferry. Well-fed, well-clothed, and lively as our men are, we can present at this post the best soldiery in the world.

Individual gallantry. Monday morning.......June 17, 1861.
--Col. A Alexander Little, of the Fredericksburg News, gives a long and spirited account of the last engagement at Aquia Creek, and concludes by making special mention of instances of individual gallantry. He says:
Where shall we begin the list of heroes, when all behaved in a manner above all praise?
Cadet Patten Robertson, the brave and modest Tennessee youth of nineteen, from Nashville, who commanded the rifle cannon with the courage and coolness of a veteran, and sent at least two Minnie bills through the Pawnee, we put first on the list. His assistants, Gardner G. Thompson, and short, stout, fat G. Aldersdale, of Richmond, and the rest of them Tennessean, whose names we tried to learn, are worthy of high praise.

Rome, Floyd Co., Ga., 15th June, 1861 The wheat crop of Georgia is now secured, and nothing like it, in quality and quantity, has ever been seen before since Adam was a baby. If Old Abe was ever impressed with the foolish notion that we were on the verge of starvation in the Cotton States, a glance at our running-over garners and the luxuriance of our growing crops would very soon dispel the fatal illusion. The sweet and Irish potato crop alone of the South will keep our army in good fighting order for the next six months. If there is any starving to be done anywhere on the continent during the present year, it will certainly not be on this side of Mason & Dixon. The lantern jawed denizens of the sterile hills of New England may, if their pumpkin crop should fail, go to bed on empty stomachs, while we "poor Southerners" are filled to repletion with not only the necessaries, but luxuries of life. Then, perhaps, they will envy the condition of our sleek, fat negroes, for whom they seem to have so much commiseration. J. R. S.

[yeoman]

Re: Weight Standards?

Sir, in a previous post I stated I felt "bushwhacked", well with the wind filling my sails again I feel my statement was knee jerk. In my heart I,m still the young fellow finding his first minie ball at Utoy Creek Atlanta and I remember it was the hearts of those who answered the call I draw my breath today. Whatever impression is mine to come, I will work to honor those before me. Today again and always, a prayer for our daughters and son,s who have and will serve and protect us all. My 2 cents, thanks.

[Roy Queen]

Re: Weight Standards?

In my opinion, as a ranger, and as a living historian, what I look for in a successful living history program is how the event is presented, and if the uniforms, equipment, etc are correct for the site, and especially if the reenactor/living historian has the right attitude for the program, knows thier stuff, and above all else, is safe.

As far as weight goes, I've never considered it an issue. In fact, I'm pretty big myself, so I shouldn't be the one to throw stones! :D

Roy Queen

[Hank Trent]

Re: Weight Standards?

Just curious, have any events ever been held with a weight standard? How did it work?

Reenactors seem happy to have incentives to upgrade other things. To be able to participant at this great event, you need to... have this article of clothing, be able to do this skill, have this knowledge, be at this level of fitness. Works all the time. People who do think the event would be great, spend a couple hundred bucks on new gear, or study, or exercise, until they can meet the requirement. Those who don't think the event is worth it, don't bother.

So would any event be enticing enough, that if the organizers set a weight requirement, enough reenactors would see it as a positive incentive to lose weight?

Or would the very idea be so offensive that the negative publicity would overwhelm the event?

Personally, I just don't think there are enough reenactors of the right weight, or willing to lose weight, to make it possible. And even if the event was planned for very small numbers, I think the reaction of the community would be so negative, the organizers would be branded as snobs and meanies, rather than reenactors who were pushing the envelope in authenticity. But I dunno. Has it been done? Could it be done? What do others think?

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Weight Standards?

Hallo!

Doubt it...

Brutally said, IMHO, "age" and "weight" are the last silent and not so silent at times "hypocrises" of the Civil War Community in general and its Authentic Community in particular.

Less brutally, perhaps is the old vaudeville routine:

Man: Doctor, doctor. My brother thiks he is a chicken!
Doctor: Why don't you bring him in for help?
Man: We need the eggs.

IMHO, we need the eggs.

"We" teeter back and forth, and toe the line in our minds before stepping back. Meaning, as we see, and have also read here, some are willing to embrace the wrong "demographics" when it comes age and weight, as long as a lad has the "Right Attitude," the "Right Kit," and the "Right Activities."
How much, or how little, on the Sliding Scale of Imperfection, can depend upon Mental Picture, one's true segment of the F/M/C/P/H/A Paradigm, and one's length of time in "the Hobby."

But...

What exactly is a "weight standard?"
A flat stomach and a flat behind? A fixed pre Civil War Quetelet Index or BMI (Body Mass Index)? An Ideal Weight for a given height? A certain percentage or less of Body Fat? The four issue garment sizes?

What exactly is an "age standard?"
Someone who visibly looks to be say 18-24? Somene who actually is 18-24. Someone who is, or visibly looks, to be "under 30," "under 40?" in "Civil War" years. Someone who can look and function "under 30" from 1 yard, 5 yards, 50 yards away?

At the end of the day, reenacting and living history tend to be, demographically, skewed toward the modern "recreationalist" doing this as recreation, hobby, pastime of the "over 30, over 40, and over 50" white male.
Throwing them out, would "throw the baby out with the bathwater" as
the ideal say 18-24 year old is under represented in the "Hobby" due to competing interests (high school, college, job, girls, cars, CD's/iPods, video games) and generally a lack of disposable dollars and time to spend on high priced Civil War, F & I, Rev War, War of 1812, WWI, WWII,, etc., toys.

Perversely, we are going to a break on this when they start reenacting the "Iraq War Part 1 and II" in the future as 30, 40, and 50 years olds have been given a new lease on service. Sigh...

Others' mileage will vary...

Curt
Who weighs ten pounds less than he did as an 18 year old, but is getting old Mess

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Weight Standards?

Reality check - No one has suggested an age limit at least that I see in this thead.

From an accurate representation persprective at the elite level (we not talking the m'stream where any and all can play) a height weight proportionate grey beard trumps.....a younger fat guy....everytime.

There is plenty to support enlistment in both armies of middle aged + men.