Weight Standards?

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Re: Age Standards?

It will be a sad day when those aged grey hairs (or lacking grey hair), no longer feel inept to participate in the hobby. Many of these individuals are walking encyclopedias, and have acheived mastery of 19th c. knowledge...and I count myself fortunate that I've been lucky enough to have served in the ranks with these men.

As far as weight...there's no amount of incentive you can offer an individual to lose weight...the individual (them and them alone) has to feel that burn to change their lifestyle, lose the weight and keep it off...or they'll find themselves right back in the same place just a few years down the road. That said, this burning desire can be coaxed by ones friends and families...and supported through a collective change in habits with those he's associated with.

Paul B.

Who's recently been losing weight with the Pie then Salad diet.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Weight Standards?

Hallo!

"There is plenty to support enlistment in both armies of middle aged + men."

Well, if the Life Expectancy at the time of the Civil War was say 45, that would make "middle age" in the 20's.
And if the Life Expectancy now is say 75, that would make "middle age"
in the 30's.

Just a-funnin'... ;) :)

Curt
Thinking of Henry Fonda's (Norman) comment in "On Golden Pond" along the lines of being "middle aged" and that people do not live to be 150...

[vamick]

Re: Weight Standards?

Ive been reading this thread, and pondering whats said ...well in reality Ive been pretending to work :D...excuse me for an ignoramis and help me to futher my edumacation,,but just how do we arrive at this 'ideal'? isnt it a lil lopsided? From the rosters Ive read Confederate anyway I find a less than complete ( usually nothing ) listing of weight height and age, some have age, sometimes a spotty discription ( "light haired hazel eyes" or "dark complected laborer 36 ) in those who do list age there are plenty of youngins! but there are also quiet quiet! a few older fellars expecially after conscription..then there is the artillery! for the outfit ( actually battalion) that I claim to re-represent there were quiet a few 30 somethings and even as old a earily 50's ( tho they were often left tending battery farms for forage, or discharged, falling prey to the weight of the guns with ailments such as rupture) just where are we getting the numbers that we can say 'with authority' that X percent were XX age anyway? wouldnt this vary widely and WILDLY with the variables of theater/units/and choice of arms?? Ive heard that the 'average cavalryman was 5'4" and weighed 140 pds"..or was that a 5'1" 120 pnd jockey? folks...the images dont back thsi up! Ive seen soldiers who were tall soldiers who were short, some of em looked like a sickly 12 year old, then there are thsoe who are diffenitely 40ish...and even some who were *ahem* 'stocky' to down rite BIG... they were NOT all skinny teenagers er 20 somethings..where do these numbers come from? edjicate me

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Weight Standards?

I can show you photos of hundreds of CS soldiers who appear to be older than their 20's..

I defy anyone to post a period image of CS soldier you would describe as overweight.

Look at the Camp Douglas photo here you can zoom and really study maybe 500 CS individuals:

http://www.encyclopedia.chicagohistory.org/pages/10434.html

Take Prisoners at Chattanooga, Punch Bowl, Five Forks...there are excellent enlargements on this very board....no overweights there.

[Dale Beasley]

Re: Weight Standards?

Ok Guys, if you all don't cool it some moderator will shut this thread down, like they have done others recently.

Everyone has valid points here. Mike is correct, there should be a standard for all of us to drive towards.

Periods moments...folks really is an overweight guy or a female with a great impression going to ruin your period moment?

Standards.... it's all about standards. Is the overweight guy working towards losing weight...he should. Should someone go running around making sure everyone knows there is a female in the ranks with a great impression and unless someone really looks hard could they tell? It's done...

It's all about doing what is right.

Period moments, sometimes when I hear it I just laugh, light up a cigar and wait for a mortar round to come in.

[coastaltrash]

Re: Weight Standards?

Last female I saw in the ranks was noticeable from at least 20 feet away, but that's discussion for another thread.

[Hank Trent]

Re: Age Standards?

It will be a sad day when those aged grey hairs (or lacking grey hair), no longer feel inept to participate in the hobby.

Ignoring the interesting use of the word "inept," ;) I'd say there are two different things:

• Banning certain categories of people from the hobby (like for example saying "no women").
• Expecting people to portray roles that they physically resemble, and making those roles available (like, for example, saying "women must portray women, not men")

Most of the time, I try to portray someone my age, doing what someone my age would typically do. If an event allows it and the role sounds like fun, I'll occasionally portray someone much younger than me, and occasionally I've portrayed someone much older. But I realize it's a less accurate impression, and if all events said no to age-inappropriate roles, I'd be cool with that.

As far as weight...there's no amount of incentive you can offer an individual to lose weight...the individual (them and them alone) has to feel that burn to change their lifestyle, lose the weight and keep it off...or they'll find themselves right back in the same place just a few years down the road.

Would the same thing be true for fitness level? Events don't seem to have a problem requiring a certain fitness level, which participants can either maintain indefinitely through ongoing exercise, or reach for a particular event and then slack off afterwards.

just where are we getting the numbers that we can say 'with authority' that X percent were XX age anyway? wouldnt this vary widely and WILDLY with the variables of theater/units/and choice of arms??

One could say the same for any event guidelines. I don't really see it as a difficulty. An event would, as usual, designate the regiment(s) to be portrayed, and based on the best available evidence of photographs and rosters of those regiments or regiments with similar backgrounds at the same time and place, patch together a best-guess weight requirement same as they do a uniform requirement.

Not that I think it would be politically possible, but research-wise, one could draw conclusions based on evidence and write guidelines for age, weight, hair color, whatever, same as specifying preferred/allowed/discouraged canteens, blankets, hats, or anything else.

But like Curt says, we need the eggs.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Weight Standards?

Hallo!

Moderator hat on...

Yes, we are drifting dangerously back and forth across the "line" that the AC Forum strives for.

Thanks for the contributions to the discussions.

Moderator hat off...

"Periods moments...folks really is an overweight guy or a female with a great impression going to ruin your period moment?"

Across the F/M/C/P/H/A Model, the answer to ruining Magic Moments is both yes and no, depending upon one's personal chosen Mental Picture of what they see themselves doing and where they see themselves fitting in.
Which is also tied in with the level of having Believeable Images in the form of impressions/personae and activities that meet the goals of the event or historical site interpretation- if not in Suspending Disbelief for oneself and one's comrades (or visiting or spectating public.)

So, yes the "overweight guy," or "female" can conflict with that- assuming it is important to the desired or stated goal. Sometimes it is important and critically so, sometimes it is totally unimportant and irrevelent.

Taking it out of the Civil War to try to be more "neutral" and less "message heavy"... I am sure that these lads and lassies (there are two) are great folks, good friends, having a great time, getting a return for the investment of time, money, and energy, and are making an effort to educate the public about World WWII history:





Curt

[flattop32355]

Re: Weight Standards?

But if I pull on that stinky gray uniform and submit myself as a Top Tier contender...by God I better bring an A... not B- or C+ Game (at least in the culture I come from).
A man must know his place in the order of things, nothing more.

But if anyone is looking for a research based manic neurotic OCD CS soldier in FL/GA and wants to do it as materially and methodology accurate as possible at m'stream events...PM me. Think of it as authentic campaigner for the beer and chicken wing set. Have jean will travel.

I believe I've brought this up with you before, either here or another forum.

Let's look at the reality of situation:

1) High End reenactments/LH's, etc are not period correct, they are just (quite a bit) more so than the others. We can't get exactly to where they were, often not particularly close, even in the most easily reproduced; materials. So to use any reason to not participate in said events is a bit disingenuous, from the standpoint of none of us will, or can, hit the mark.

2) We are not Civil War soldiers. We are merely reenactors, portraying as best we can Civil War soldiers, for personal enjoyment, education of ourselves and others, and any number of other reasons. There is value there, beyond any physical and chronological deficiencies, that can make any of us an asset to the hobby, our comrades and to the interpretation of history. Don't waste that dedication because of what amount to minor flaws in the overall scheme.

3) Don't go to a High End event to see if you can meet "their" standards. Go because you want to go. Make sure you meet the event standards, but beyond that, everyone else there is too busy worrying about their own flaws and shortcomings to give a rat's tee-hieney about whether you meet their individual standards or not. I know, I've been there. At best, I'm too old and too fat. Other than that, I fit in quite well with the other participants, thank you very much. I may have been bringing up the rear when we made a mad charge across the field, but I was there when the shooting started and anything else important was needed during the weekend. Not one D@mn reason you can't do the same.

Don't deny yourself the experience because you can't meet some personally inflicted standard that very few (if any) in this hobby can meet, either. That's not authenticity; that's just silliness.

the truth is that the folks that we try to depict were very different from us physically.

Let us also not forget emotionally, culturally, mentally, etc, etc, etc. We aren't them. We're just trying to be something like them, as our abilities and knowledge allow.

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Weight Standards?

Hey !! Sgt. Schultz !!!! ...come on now that's accurate... I dont care where you're from.

You rekon those folks put themselves out as the top tier of their hobby ?

Chris
I Know Nussing Mess

[OldKingCrow]

More period fat references:

New York Herald – April 13, 1865
Quite a number of the contrabands in the Quartermaster’s employ are women. These are now engaged as cooks and laundresses. The contrabands get all they want to eat, and appear to be as happy as they possibly can be. They are all of them well clothed. It is remarkable how the negro women have kept up their fat, while the white women of Richmond, taken collectively, are lean and hungry looking. The only solution to the mystery of how the women kept fat is that they were generally employed as cooks, and of course got the pick “at the things of this life” which emanated from the kitchen.

From the Richmond Dispatch, 10/10/1862, p. 2, c. 5

Attempted Escape From Prison. – A number of the men confined in Castle Thunder entered into a plan a few nights ago to escape, by digging their way through the wall enclosing the eastern side of the prison. The noise made by them in getting out the bricks gave the prison authorities the first intimation they had of the state of affairs. Soon after which a guard was stationed in the stable, immediately over the spot where the parties would have to make their egress. To reach the level of the stable floor from the “hole in the wall” below, the parties had to burrow upwards over four feet, through the debris formed by the ruins of the old East India warehouse, which adjoins Greanor’s factory. The parties were two days in making preparations for their flight. When the first one emerged from the hole into the stable (about 9 o’clock Wednesday night) a pistol was presented at his head, and he was told he would be shot if he made the slightest noise. In this way thirteen emerged through the hole, and were captured. One fat fellow stuck fast, and the noise made in getting him clear alarmed all the rest. The captives were taken before the commandant of the prison, who ordered them to be put in the dungeon, and fed on bread and water.

same incident

Annals of the War
CHAPTERS OF UNWRITTEN HISTORY
LIBBY PRISON’S TUNNEL
How Sixty-One Union Soldiers Escaped From the Famous Dungeon.
THRILLING NARRATIVE BY AN OFFICER
Hours of Suspense Followed by Welcome Breaths of Fresh Air.
A BREAK FOR LIBERTY.
An Account of the Trying Experiences of Three Unfortunate Fugitives.
BY FRANK E. MORAN,
Formerly Captain of Company H, Seventy-third New York Volunteers.

This news sent a chill of horror and unutterable disgust through the crowd, muttered curses were rained thick and fast upon the unlucky victim’s head, or rather stomach, and it was clear that the mob, in its savage and ungovernable vexation in finding the road to freedom thus, as it was feared, hopelessly blockaded, would, if they could, have removed the fat man in sections. Meanwhile the sensations of the luckless fat man in his appalling situation may be faintly conjectured, but the reader must wait for a bolder pen than mine to paint this picture. I confess that although eighteen years has elapsed since the occurrence, the bare thought of my fat comrade’s harrowing plight in the Libby tunnel that might give me a painful oppression of the heart. I hasten to say that at last the corpulent comrade on the verge of suffocation, with forty feet yet to go, made a supreme last struggle for life and reached the open air in the stable yard, when he sank down, bruised, limp and breathless, and I rejoice to add - although he delayed me with the rest - that he was one of the happy sixty-one who reached the Union lines. The escape of our at comrade was a deplorable loss to the Confederates, who had been pointing him out to distinguished visitors to Libby as a stupendous refutation of the damaging charges that Union prisoners were being reduced to skeletons.

Alexander Hunter, 17th Va. Inf., Johnny Reb and Billy Yank, pp. 563-565 Chimbarazo Hospital
Miss Sallie as a quartermaster would have been worth her weight in gold; she was a born forager, and no matter how scarce vegetables might be in the beleagured city, she always managed to secure enough for her patients; indeed, fed them so well that some of them actually grew fat and refused to go home on a wounded furlough because they had such a royal time at The Robertson, which, by the way, was situated in the most fashionable part of the city.

Adventures of an Iron Brigade Man
By CAPT. R. K. BEECHAM, 2d Wis.
COPYRIGHTED, 1902, BY THE PUBLISHERS OF THE NATIONAL TRIBUNE.

During the last year of the war Sherman marched an army of 60,000 men from Atlanta to Savannah, a distance of 300 miles, in dead of Winter, subsisting upon provisions they found in the country, and Sherman’s men did not starve, but came through fat, saucy and in splendid fighting condition.

[OldKingCrow]

and a few more:

Richmond Examiner, Saturday, 4/4/1863 , p.1
Dr. Palmer was a middle aged, portly man, in blue uniform, and is the surgeon at the Davenport Hospital .

National Tribune, 7/12/1900, p. 8
FALL OF RICHMOND
Evacuation of the Capital of the Confederacy as Seen by a Boy.
By J. W. M.
As the long lines of soldiers approached, wit clanking sabers and accoutrements, the crowds of colored people became almost frantic. They danced, embraced each other, in camp-meeting fashion, and shouted their welcomes. “Bress de Lord, we’s free!” “Glory hallelujah!” “Come on, chill’un, come on!” and similar cries were heard on all sides. Some of the old negro mammies rushed into the roadway ad tried to embrace the troops. I distinctly remember a handsome young officer with light curly hair, who was seized from behind by a portly colored woman, who held him in her muscular embrace and kissed him repeatedly before he could free himself. He blushed deeply and seemed greatly embarrassed when the men of his company laughed heartily and cheered at his discomfiture. While the fat colored woman was embracing and kissing him she repeatedly shouted: “Honey, you’se dun freed us.”

A Boy’s Experiences in the Civil War 1860 – 1865, Hughes, Thomas. privately published, 1904
The gala performance of the day was at dress parade. This occurred at five in the afternoon. The large plaza fronting the full width of the Alms House furnished a fine parade ground. Colonel Shipp, a portly, dignified impressive man who at the time of my present writing is still at the Institution now as Superintendent was then the Commandant, his adjutant was a little man named Woodbridge and these two with the well drilled corps as a whole furnished the three striking incidents of the parade.

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Weight Standards?

Yes, I have no life:

The White man under. November 2, 1860 Daily Telegraph--The negro Wide-awake turned out in procession in Boston, on Thursday night, in honor of the Republican M. C. Burlingame. But there was a screw loose. The negroes, naturally enough, insisted upon being placed at the head of the column, but it seems that this was denied, and the result was, that the negroes in great indignation wheeled out of the line, and, says the "Courier,"
"The stately air with which their leader, a portly negro, gathered his cloak about him and waved his baton as he shouted 'Forward dark and led the way down Green street, while his white brethren pursued their route down Cambridge street, was truly sublime.--The crowd were intensely delighted at the darkies' pluck and cheered them on justly,"

Extract of a letter dated Trenton, /N. J., December, 5th, 1860:
Dear Ned:-- Now, as the Northern journals are pitching into the South "promiscuous like," let me draw you a "picture"
The night I reached Trenton, some two months since, the "Wide-Awakes" had a grand and imposing procession, composed in the main of the mechanics of this city, and displaying, regardless of the cost of oil, some 2,000 torchlights. For this occasion the mighty Morton McMichael, of the Philadelphia Press, was imported to talk "Tariff" to the working men of Jersey. That portly old gentleman, whether from a late dinner, or chronics bronchitis — perhaps both, was as hoarse as stupid; but it was sufficient that he was a Republican. Cheer followed cheer, yell upon yell, "Lincoln and a Tariff," was the cry. Many supposed that, like our Martin Lipscomb, Old Abe, would give every poor man a cow.

Zollicoffer in Kentucky--sick in Hospital — Ruse played at Barboarsville--Tennessee B Society — day of Thanksgiving.
Knoxville, Tenn., Oct. 15, 1861.
An officer who was in the skirmish at Barboursville, Kentucky, on September 19th, relates an amusing anecdote of the Colonel commanding our forces in playing a ruse on the enemy. Our cavalry and infantry advanced in a thick fog, and got into an exposed situation. The foe were firing at them from a cornfield and from under a bridge, and our men, unable to see them, had to return the fire at random. At length, Col. Battle, a portly, gray-haired old gentleman, rode forward and cried out, with a terrible oath, "Get out of the way, cavalry and infantry, and let the artillery come forward." There was not a single piece of artillery, yet the Lincoln troops, on hearing this order, instantly rose, like a flock of wild geese, and can, when destructive volleys were poured into them.

Army of the Potomac.
[Special Correspondence of the Dispatch.]
Independent Scout Bivouac, Near Centreville, January 23, 1862.
Major Cabell, after eight months or more of devoted service in this division, during which time he has made a host of friends and admirers, received official, and by the way one of the stiffest and coldest notices, that he was relieved of duty here and transferred to our forces in Arkansas. Perhaps the notice was strictly official and military, and it would not be comme il faut to express any terms of appreciation of good service in it. However, what the notice did not convey, the good will of the junior officers in the department of Major Cabell did. Yesterday, learning of his departure to the seat of war in the West, these officers surprised the portly and independent Major by presenting him with an order for a full dress uniform of the most costly and superior character.

The Occasional. Savannah, Ga., March 8, 1862.

Of course in this attitude of affairs, every man in the city capable of bearing arms, and not legally exempt, is in service, and when the striking hour approaches, the old men too are prepared to fall into the ranks and fight by the side of their sons. Georgians have not yet run in this revolution, and you may be sure they will never leave their homes while a drop of their blood remains to consecrate the soil. Among those whom I have found under arms and doing effective, active service on the outposts, is W. H. Wiltberger, Esq., well known for the last thirty or forty years as "mine host" of the Pulaski House, and the proprietor of the beautiful "Bonaventure" estate. His portly form now bestrides a cavalry horse, and he has sworn to his company — he is the Captain of the "Georgia Hussars"--that until the war is closed he will never ride on wheels again, unless it is to the grave.

A case of Deception.
We only once witnessed an exhibition of this kind. An Irishwoman, in tattered garments, with an imperfectly washed physiognomy, abruptly waylaid us at the back door of our modest suburban residence. Never was passionate grief so vividly portrayed on the face of a human being as on that of this excited daughter of Erin. The tears poured down her cheeks. We stopped, almost awe struck, to listen to her tale of woe. It was this: Her baby, an interesting little creature, three weeks old, was lying dead in the village, and the vicar declined to consign it to consecrated ground unless the customary fees were paid.--"Sure, your honor will give a trifle to get the blessed baby put decently under the ground?"--Now, we were personally acquainted with the vicar. He was the most amiable of men. Rather than have witnessed those gushing tears for the space of one minute, he would have gladly submitted to be buried alive along with the babe. A portly coachman was therefore summoned to accompany the Irish woman to the vicarage and ascertain the right of the story. Mounted on a pony of corresponding bulk, John started, with the weeping mother walking by his side. In a quarter of an hour he returned, flushed and discomfited. The weeping mother had suddenly dashed through a gap in the hedge, and vanished across the country. Both coachman and pony were too fat to follow and the unburied baby was a myth.

Pictures of Southern Generals.
--The Columbus Times publishes from the pen of its army correspondent, the following pictures of three of our prominent Generals:

Gen. Lee has, I believe, won his way to everybody's confidence. In appearance he is tall, portly, and commanding. His dress is usually a plain Brigadier's uniform, a black felt hat, with the brim turned down, and he wears a short grizzled beard all round his face. He has much of the Washingtonian dignity about him, and is much respected by all with whom he is thrown. At Sharpsburg I saw him on the field during the heat of the action. He was surrounded by his staff and a perfect squadron of couriers. He was engaged in calmly viewing the storm of battle, and giving orders in a manner of cool reliance. Aids and couriers were hurrying to and from the right, left and centre, and the whole disposition of forces seemed under his perfect control.

Gen. Longstreet is stout and fleshy, and of good height, and has a quiet, courageous look. He seems full of thought and of decision, and his face makes an agreeable impression alike on new and old acquaintances. He is characteristically a fighting man — none can equal him in forcing a strong and well fortified position, and Gen, Lee showed his appreciation of an old tried soldier, when he patted him on the shoulder after the late battle and said, "My old war horse!" In this engagement he was second in command of the army, and his old corps keenly felt the need of his able handling.


I was surprised at Stonewall Jackson's appearance. He has been described as a sort of clown. I never yet saw him riding with his knees drawn up like a monkey, and his head resting upon his breast. He has a first-rate face, and seems a plainly dressed Captain of Cavalry, with an unpretending Staff. His uniform is fine enough, certainly, for the hard life he leads. But the imagination is piqued, you know, by the absence of pretension, as "a King in gray clothes," Stonewall don't like to come about the army much. The boys keep him bareheaded all the time. When they begin to cheer him be usually pulls off his hat, spurs his fine horse, and runs through the howls which meet him at every step (for some five miles) as hard as he can go.

Camp Near B. & O. R. R., June 18, 1863.
The Valley campaign has again opened; if somewhat later than last year, thus far, at least, with equal success. Gen. Ewell's victory over the tyrant Milroy, in his strong position, his complete rout, the capture of nearly the whole of his army, at once stamps the former as the right man in the right place, and augurs well for the future achievements of that great leader, while the modest Major Hawks, our Corps Commissary, as well as the portly gentleman who presides over the Quartermaster Department of the same, will have to look to their laurels when brought against such a formidable competitor in their respective lines as Gen. Milroy.

[Dale Beasley]

Re: Weight Standards?

Curt,

I really found your post funny. We are lucky in our hobby and with-in our group, that we have overweight men and female reenactors who really should not be compared to these yahoos in your WW II pictures...who do put-forth an effort...so we are talking apples and oranges.

Got to get back to my grapefruit...

[vamick]

Re: Weight Standards?

I can show you photos of hundreds of CS soldiers who appear to be older than their 20's..

I defy anyone to post a period image of CS soldier you would describe as overweight.

.

Well that would be hard! tho Id still 'never say never' Id venture a guess that if I did find an overweight CS soldier he'd be an officer or a Richmond army functionary.... I guess what I gettin at is that IMO at least people have not changed that much physically between then and now..what HAS changed is our level of physical labor, and the foods we eat..especially those! those men were for the most part leaner but Ive never actually seen data that says 'we' here in 08 are across the board taller/chestier or for that matter 'smarter'!:D that latter is in great doubt seems to me! seriously has anyone researched this? Ive seen comparisons of hwo traps were worn, percentiles on uniform unifromity ect..what about age and body mass?