Burst Indian musket update

[Curt Schmidt]

Hallo!

This is making the rounds:

http://www.middlesexvillagetrading.com/special/HPWhiteReportWithPersonalInfoBlocked.pdf

IMHO, it leaves more questions unanswered as it does answering any... other than there appears to have been an obstruction of some undetermined type, and that the steel's micro inclusions were not excessive, and that the steel's tensile strength is consistent with muzzleloading barrels.

For me personally, I would preferred greater depth such as a look at the Indian barrel making process to see whether the steel used was fashioned into a true "barrel" capable of handling pressures, with a breech plug, whether they are really not "proofed," etc., etc.. To say that the analysis of the steel is consistent with ML barrels, is the start, not the end of the inquiry.

If we do not believe the "gun's" owner, or hold him to be lying, a "barrel" blowing up (catastrophic faliure) or rupturing after a few blank rounds is still a cause for concern and calls for testing and more questions to be asked and answered. (Which I do not see as forthcoming...)

However, that is me personally, and others will get what they want from the limited depth report to justify, or not justify, using Indian "imports."
And, of course, as always others' mileage will vary...

Curt

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Re: Burst Indian musket update

Curt,

Thanks for posting...

Unfortunately, these "non-qualified" barrels provide an expediate, option for firearms not typically produced elsewhere (unless an individual builds a custom piece)...up until this year, some of these guns (ala. Brown Bess) were less than half the costs of the Italian made muskets...now due to the value of the dollar, the difference is only a mere couple hundred dollars.

It would appear that the bulk of the 18th c. community is thinking with their wallets, and would rather have this issue swept under the rug, instead of getting to the root cause. I for one cannot rationalize any issue when it comes to safety, and potential loss of life or limb.

Once again, if nothing else, this event and analysis shows us the importance of PROPER WEAPONS INSPECTIONS...and PROPER LOADING procedures. Given that at our events, we frequently load using rammer and paper cartridges, this becomes especially critial.

Thanks,

Paul B.

[ACo.]

Re: Burst Indian musket update

Excellent and informative post Herr Schmidt, thank you. This is making the rounds of all of the Muzzle Loading forums and has been accepted loudly by the owners of these "guns" as the new gospel that they have been looking for. Never mind that the guns are more or less just cartoons of the originals that they are supposed to represent. It must be remembered that the site where this is found is one of the three main suppliers of the Indian guns to the hobby but then why wouldn't he put this out there for people to see?

One troubling thing is found in this report that ALL reenactors need to take to heart and that is cleaning. Here is the quote that I find most troubling:

“Some informal observations follow: Powder residue within the barrel appeared abnormal in my experience. Normally, black powder residue is just that black The residue in this barrel was gray and rather hard. Past failure location this residue appeared to be “undisturbed” suggesting that the barrel obstruction may not have been a projectile or a hard object that was expelled out the muzzle. The gray residue was relatively thick beyond the end of the crack for what one would expect a powder residue to be.”

The bore had possibly not been cleaned for quite some time, maybe never? Too many people in the hobby are not familiar with firearms and their safe handling. Even experienced shooters who only use their guns for reenacting and never fire them with ball (seems some believe that pieces of projectiles can be left in the barrel and come out with blanks at a reenactment) feel that since they are only firing blanks they can not be harmed. THIS IS FOOLISH! You are setting off an open ended pipe bomb inches from your face and need to treat it with respect. Too many reenactors show up at events with dirty weapons and this has to stop. I mean, you can't even drop the ramrod all the way to the breechplug for goodness sake. This courting disaster. Clean the bore religiously or don't take to the field. As fouling builds up, it effectively decreases the diameter of the bore and rust can start under the fouling. It takes only 15 minutes to clean a musket by the US Army Manual of 1863 and there is no excuse for any of us NOT to clean the gun. Just do it.

[JustRob]

Re: Burst Indian musket update

I'm confused by the statement that the residue in the barrel was grey is color. I shoot Goex & Elephant powder, and the residue usually appears grey, though it washes out black.

As for cleaning weapons, I clean my weapon to near surgical standards after each event, and at the beginning & end of the season.

It's the single most expensive article in my reenacting kit. If you wouldn't mistreat your car, why would you mistreat your musket?

[BCIDick]

Re: Burst Indian musket update

I'm not a scientist, but from the report it would appear the following conditions, or combination thereof, most likely caused the burst barrel:

1. Obstruction causing overpressure in the barrel. (see#4 below).
2. Huge amount of black powder or equivalent was loaded resulting in overpressure.
3. Use of modern smokeless powder instead of black powder or equivalent.
4. A large amount of unburnt powder residue in the barrel caused enough obstruction to create overpressure.

[ACo.]

Re: Burst Indian musket update

I'm not a scientist, but from the report it would appear the following conditions, or combination thereof, most likely caused the burst barrel:

1. Obstruction causing overpressure in the barrel. (see#4 below).
2. Huge amount of black powder or equivalent was loaded resulting in overpressure.
3. Use of modern smokeless powder instead of black powder or equivalent.
4. A large amount of unburnt powder residue in the barrel caused enough obstruction to create overpressure.

Some excellent thoughts on one and two Bob. Three and four are a little problematic though, here are my thoughts for what they are worth (not much of course....)

3. Use of modern smokeless powder instead of black powder or equivalent.

Not very likely since smokeless powder ignites at a much higher temp that BP. A flintlock can not ignite it though percussion locks might. (Not that I would want to try it, even with a flintlock. I would probably be the one that would get it to work when everyone says "Impossible!" )

4. A large amount of unburnt powder residue in the barrel caused enough obstruction to create overpressure.

Again possible but unlikely. Any grains of powder that would have snagged on or gotten nestled into the old fouling in the barrel should burn off each time the gun is fired since, as I am sure you are aware, there is fire blowing down the barrel from the breach to the muzzle due to the fact that BP is a slow burning propellant and it does not all ignite at once it burns all the way down the barrel. The bore may have been so foul with firing residue from heaven knows how many years that it just ruptured due to constriction and a possible overcharge. We will probably never know since it is doubtful that the owner will pursue it further.

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Burst Indian musket update

I'm confused by the statement that the residue in the barrel was grey is color. I shoot Goex & Elephant powder, and the residue usually appears grey, though it washes out black.

Voire Dire ? Your honor I have selected our first juror.

If I represented this I would like Mr. Metallurgist to amend his report and focus on his field of expertise and let the others speak to black powder and combustion issues.

[Todd Watts]

Pyrodex may be a culprit. It generates about 30% higher pressures than an equal volume of BP and does leave hard gray fouling. Also, it is much easier to obtain than BP. To work in flintlocks you'd just about have to use its "P" size which is granulated like FFFg. A 90 gr charge of that would really be a stout load. Flinters normally don't mess with it because it does not generally ignite that well in flintlock hunting-style rifles, but the military style guns could set it off well enough to be used because of that bigger flint. I have this same Bess model Indian musket and have played with "P" Pyrodex in it. It fired each of the 3 shots I tried (70 gr). I used Goex FFg (90 gr) in it normally and only tried "P" to see how it would work knowing that the smaller flinters I have used "P" in did not work that reliably.

These Indian barrels may be the culprit for sure. They are being supplied by 'UDA' which is a conglomeration of dozens of Indian manufacturers all with varying degrees of standards and competance. Some barrel makers may come from a top-quality steel plant while others are hammered out by some villager on a railroad track anvil while looking over his shoulder at a cobra in the corner. I have really looked hard at mine and see no seams and it appears pretty stout. However, since these guns are not meant to be fired, being instead sold as "non-firing wall-hangers" they really have no need to worry about using extruded tubes or what-not for barrels. I got mine from MilitaryHeritage.com and it is sold without a vent. I spoke to a person there and he said he could not recommend that I drill it to shoot, but that he knew of no safety issues from those that have done it, and said 3/16" was the bit that seemed to work best. In other words, "lawyers say don't do it - but here is how to do it." For $500 I got a working Bess that has yet to fail to fire and seems to have good quality parts so far. The Pedersoli was $800 at the time. It is not nearly as nice as a Pedersoli, with a cheaper wood and the wood to metal fit is not that great, but to replctae a used war surplus Bess available to Americans after the Revy war for Civil War period, it is pretty decent.

As for Civil War use, I ran across last night a reference to the Brown Bess use by CS troops at Ft. Henry. The 10th TN Inf. carried into that fort flintlock foulers, shotguns, hunting rifles and, according to Horn in "The Army of Tennessee" a number of "Tower of London" muskets from militias that had carried them with Jackson to New Orleans in 1814. These were without a doubt, the "short land pattern" Bess because they had to have been in militia arsenals before the War of 1812 and the shorter "India-pattern" Bess was only arriving at New Orleans at that time with the British troops.

[calconfederate]

Re: Burst Indian musket update

I wonder how many muskets used during the Civil War were made from 1440 grade steel?

[calconfederate]

Re: Burst Indian musket update

Looks like another completely subjective decision to censor.

[Yellowhammer Rebel]

Re: Burst Indian musket update

Really? You deleted a video showing Indian made weapons to be safe? Why, what could be the reasoning in that?

[Eric Tipton]

Re: Burst Indian musket update

Post has been restored. These are The Sinks and the post relates to the original post.

[calconfederate]

Re: Burst Indian musket update

Really? You deleted a video showing Indian made weapons to be safe? Why, what could be the reasoning in that?

Two questions in that regard: How many muskets used during the Civil War were made from 1440 grade steel?
And.........to what degree are Italian reproductions historically accurate replicas? The materials and production methods are completely different. Many rifle barrels used during the Civil War were hammer forged around a mandrel, not drilled. I have to wonder how much safer many originals were compared with India made musket barrels manufactured from 330 grade extruded steel, the same kind used for making precision tools and nuclear power plant steam lines.

[Ambrose Bierce]

Re: Burst Indian musket update

Search function will answer most of your queries. This topic has been covered many times on this forum and elsewhere.

Short answer is modern repros are not like the originals and every repro has a shortcoming.

The only burst barrels I know of during the war are due to barrels being fired with multiple charges in it. The steel about which you ask was not used.

Unsolicited opinion is that Indian muskets are unsafe. Get a good repro and defarb it or find a suitable original.

[calconfederate]

Re: Burst Indian musket update

Search function will answer most of your queries. This topic has been covered many times on this forum and elsewhere.

Short answer is modern repros are not like the originals and every repro has a shortcoming.

The only burst barrels I know of during the war are due to barrels being fired with multiple charges in it. The steel about which you ask was not used.

Unsolicited opinion is that Indian muskets are unsafe. Get a good repro and defarb it or find a suitable original.

Seems to be almost entirely based on anecdotal information. While I appreciate your advice I do already have four Italian muskets and a couple of Italian pistols. I think I'd like to try an India musket and see for myself. I've run into a few reenactors recently who have been quite pleased with their purchase. I've been skeptical and suspicious for years, but I've done some research and come to different conclusions.