Baseball came from England?

[Johnny Lloyd]

This new find on the history of baseball might challenge some conventional wisdom...

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/baseball/mlb/09/11/baseball.england.ap/index.html?cnn=yes

Mods, if you need to move the thread, please do so.

-Johnny

[MarionRifles]

Re: Baseball came from England?

Yep, the English were enjoying a game called "rounders" at least 200 years before we took up playing baseball.

[Hank Trent]

Re: Baseball came from England?

Um, this doesn't really change anything. "Base ball" has already been tracked older than 1755 in England, in at least two sources.

The first known historical use of the word "base-ball" was in the classic English children's book A Little Pretty Pocket-Book in 1744. This work... includes a small woodcut entitled "Base-ball," which depicts three well-dressed young men arrayed on a field with three bases marked by posts. One player is preparing to pitch a ball, while a waiting striker, with no bat in his hands, stands ready to hit the ball with the flat of his palm. A short verse beneath the illustration reads:

The ball once struck off,
Away flies the boy
To the next destined post,
And then home with joy. Source.

Here's a letter written from London, Nov. 14, 1748:

...the Prince's family [Frederick, Prince of Wales, at Leicester House] is an example of innocent and cheerful amusements. All this last summer they played abroad; and now, in the winter, in a large room, they divert themselves at base-ball, a play all who are, or have been, schoolboys, are well acquainted with. The ladies, as well as gentlemen, join in this amusement...

However, it's published in Letters of Mary Lepel, Lady Hervey, London: John Murray, Albemarle-Street, 1821, so isn't an actual manuscript source, though I don't know if the actual letters are still floating around somewhere.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[LindaTrent]

Re: Baseball came from England?

Yep, the English were enjoying a game called "rounders" at least 200 years before we took up playing baseball.

Okay, so baseball is British, Chevys are built in Mexico and Canada, And in 1590 a British poet wrote, "Thy breath is like the steame of apple-pyes." Is nothing sacred anymore? :cry_smile

Linda.

[wilber6150]

Re: Baseball came from England?

Though the name is the same the diary doesnt give any details on how the game was played, so might be a different game all together..

[Hank Trent]

Re: Baseball came from England?

Though the name is the same the diary doesnt give any details on how the game was played, so might be a different game all together..

See my post above for a description of how it was played in 1744 England. I'd guess that would be the same as the diary's talking about. Looks like the main difference was that the ball was hit by the hand, rather than with a bat, but there were three bases (posts) and "home."

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[kevinw33]

Re: Baseball came from England?

Is this not blasphemy??? :angry_smi

[DBURT]

Re: Baseball came from England?

I remember playing " rounders" in infant school, it's basically the same as your baseball, played with rounded bat and soft ball.
Our national obsession is football ( soccer), then another bat and ball game cricket, and rugby.
" Rounders" is still played in infant school I believe.

Dave Burt, ACWS, England.

[Michael Comer]

Re: Baseball came from England?

Does it really matter where the original idea sprung from when all is said and done?

All things come from somewhere. Ideas are influenced by other ideas. Many things have common roots but diverge into different things. The adoption and development of the game as we know it, or as the world knows it for that matter, was done here in America.

It's still a wonderful game in my opinion.

[lukegilly13]

Re: Baseball came from England?

Is this not blasphemy??? :angry_smi

HaHaHa I was thinking the same thing! The next thing they are going to tell us is hot dogs came from france! LOL :tounge_sm

[Motown]

Re: Baseball came from England?

Close, they're from Germany

[Marc]

Re: Baseball came from England?

Okay, so baseball is British, Chevys are built in Mexico and Canada, And in 1590 a British poet wrote, "Thy breath is like the steame of apple-pyes." Is nothing sacred anymore? :cry_smile

Linda.

Linda,

Look to the arts....American Folk Music, Highwayman Paintings, and I am sure a few more purely American Pastimes. I was going to say R&B and Jazz Music, but it appears at least R&B may have African roots..I guess you can go back in history anywhere and find a tie end to comething current and in a different area.

[Secesh]

Re: Baseball came from England?

Well, we beat them twice, so the game is our's, and fairly won. :baring_te

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: Baseball came from England?

All:

While the "modern game" (the one we know of in America today) was codified in the 19th century, supposedly by Alexander Cartwright in 1845... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Cartwright
... this article at the beginning of this thread shows us that the term 'base-ball' was in-use prior to 1800.

My question now is- to which game does this primary source refer? Rounders, 'town ball', cricket?

Thanks- Johnny

[Hank Trent]

Re: Baseball came from England?

My question now is- to which game does this primary source refer? Rounders, 'town ball', cricket?

Did you see my post earlier in the thread that quotes a mid-18th century British description of the game of "base ball," just a few years prior to the letter? It seems reasonable that the letter is referring to the same game.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net