Event legal medical obligations

[Charles Heath]

Re: Event legal medical obligations

Dale,

You might want to start with a copy of Appendix G from January 1991. That has been a good guide. You probably have a copy in the back of Bill Smart's "Infantry School Guide" as part of 1st Confederate Brigade (now AOT) materials. It's still a useful work in spite of the age.

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: Event legal medical obligations

All:

Very thoughtful commentaries here, I must admit. Everyone brings their knowledge to the table on this subject well. I feel it's reassuring that so many fellow authentics think about these serious questions and from what I can tell on here, quite in-depth.

I've long thought about this idea of legal/medical ramifications at quality events due to their nature. Hank's question has been a question of mine too: What exactly constitutes a 'group of friends camping' and an 'event' as well as what legal/medical impact does that have (or does it)?

I'm not a lawyer, but in questions like this, I feel our hobby suffers from misperception by the public and this could lead to bad results in a courtroom of public opinion. Suppose you have someone get seriously injured at an event despite many different safeguards/legal forms to fill out prior to the event. Suppose this person or his surviving family breaks the 'spirit of goodwill' and sues -whether or not it was the participant's/landowner's fault. It would depend on the judge's perspective (who might or might not be a hobbyist- most likely not) of what the event's character/scope means as well as possible precedent in law for such cases to make a ruling.

Suppose this judge is not too keen on what we do out of personal feelings, or feels it is not too well-regulated for his liking with current safety/legal standards? Suppose he is the opposite... but what we do for a hobby DOES LOOK dangerous, even if it isn't any more dangerous that camping/hang gliding/base jumping, etc...

See, I feel this hobby is a victim of misperception here from the outside world... so I feel we need to take some precautions more than your average 'non-apperance-of-combat' hobby...

Everyone knows I'm politically a conservative and I'll have to say my distrust for too much stringent regulation spreads to my lack-of-desire for unnecessary and stringent regulation in everything. This hobby is no different for me. We can regulate it out-of-existance if we want to. But a bit more of medical standardization (Ex: a safety brief of the 5 W's in regard to emergencies before the event commences, define exactly what is to be carried in an emergency field medical pack and where/with whom to keep it... have an OC/'aide-de-camp'/referee who is not participating in the action directly, other than being in period garb, to keep his eye focused on safety of his assigned unit at all times.)

Even the smallest standarization can be helpful in a courtroom scene if all precaution fails and someone injures himself. We can't keep turning our mental eyes and conversations within the hobby away from the ugly possibility that someone has the potential (but not the real likelihood compared to most extreme hobbies) to get hurt badly or fatally. While we cannot prevent all accidents, we can take logical steps to minimize their happening.

I feel we can also take steps to cover ourselves and the hobby as a whole if we first, to a lesser extent, police and standardize our own actions in regard to safety of events.

I know, Hank, you didn't like my idea of an 'OC' on another thread and that's okay. But the above is really what I should have meant in regard to an 'OC' more for safety than game action: You're right... not strict regulation so as to crush the fun, but someone that can advise/supervise from a distanced view on safety/legal event issues. I feel that sometimes, though not always, commanders can get quite busy controlling their units to see the 'bigger picture'. Wouldn't it be nice to know for group peace-of-mind that there is someone at each event on each of the 3 sides whose TOTAL concern is safety of all just in-case the unthinkable happens? Wouldn't it be just as nice to a judge presiding over a lawsuit that there were very good, widely-standardized, well-documented/followed safety proceedures and personnel to handle these concerns?

Hank/Linda: Please pardon my miscommunication there on the other thread. Mea maxima culpa...

Please make no misunderstanding in my feelings: I must state that at every event I've been to, there has been a great amount of safety care along with generally quite experienced reenactors that attend them. This great combination so far has been why EBUFU events have been so successful. I agree with Dale that there needs to be more standardization somehow in terms of medical procedure, but I do feel quite a bit of great attention has bee paid so far to handle these safety/legal emergencies at EBUFU events.

However... to play devil's advocate...

What could it hurt to have more widely-followed standarization just in-case the unthinkable happens?


My 2 cents are almost spent...

All the best - Johnny Lloyd :wink_smil

[Hank Trent]

Re: Event legal medical obligations

Wouldn't it be nice to know for group peace-of-mind that there is someone at each event on each of the 3 sides whose TOTAL concern is safety of all just in-case the unthinkable happens? Wouldn't it be just as nice to a judge presiding over a lawsuit that there were very good, widely-standardized, well-documented/followed safety proceedures and personnel to handle these concerns?

For the military, I have no opinion. Sounds like it would work, but it's up to them. Though it does occur to me, that safety fellow's going to need a lot of liability insurance himself, because he will be responsible if he deviates slightly from any of those procedures.

If by the third side you mean civilians, I still either think you don't understand, or won't address, the problem of what influence or even knowledge one person could have over people in groups of two, three, or half a dozen, spread out over literally miles, moving at any time to any unknown new location, where cell phones most likely don't work.

Can you answer that, please? I'm genuinely puzzled, for example, how the new person you're proposing would have impacted my experience at Marmaduke's Raid, as well as the experience of the other civilians, and the scouts/bushwhackers/mossbacks. Literally, step-by-step, what would the civilian safety person's duties be there, for those participants?

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: Event legal medical obligations

For the military, I have no opinion. Sounds like it would work, but it's up to them. Though it does occur to me, that safety fellow's going to need a lot of liability insurance himself, because he will be responsible if he deviates slightly from any of those procedures.

If by the third side you mean civilians, I still either think you don't understand, or won't address, the problem of what influence or even knowledge one person could have over people in groups of two, three, or half a dozen, spread out over literally miles, moving at any time to any unknown new location, where cell phones most likely don't work.

Can you answer that, please? I'm genuinely puzzled, for example, how the new person you're proposing would have impacted my experience at Marmaduke's Raid, as well as the experience of the other civilians, and the scouts/bushwhackers/mossbacks. Literally, step-by-step, what would the civilian safety person's duties be there, for those participants?

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

Hank, this is what I mean:

I know, Hank, you didn't like my idea of an 'OC' on another thread and that's okay. But the above is really what I should have meant in regard to an 'OC' more for safety than game action: You're right... not strict regulation so as to crush the fun, but someone that can advise/supervise from a distanced view on safety/legal event issues. I feel that sometimes, though not always, commanders can get quite busy controlling their units to see the 'bigger picture'. Wouldn't it be nice to know for group peace-of-mind that there is someone at each event on each of the 3 sides whose TOTAL concern is safety of all just in-case the unthinkable happens? Wouldn't it be just as nice to a judge presiding over a lawsuit that there were very good, widely-standardized, well-documented/followed safety proceedures and personnel to handle these concerns?

Since you voiced on the other thread that it would have ruined your experience in having someone OC the game action for you, then my previous suggestion might not be a good option, especially for the '3rd force' -civilians. I cede to your good point that the OC might spoil some of the experience for you and others of your opinion.

I was speaking about having an OC/referee for better safety issues centralization only and no controlling of the action in the previous post on this thread. Nothing more than this.

As for examples of duties for a safety officer, this is what I mean as well:

(Ex: a safety brief of the 5 W's in regard to emergencies before the event commences, define exactly what is to be carried in an emergency field medical pack and where/with whom to keep it... have an OC/'aide-de-camp'/referee who is not participating in the action directly, other than being in period garb, to keep his eye focused on safety of his assigned unit at all times.)

Mr. Trent, as for the 'step-by step', it could be decided and agreed upon by the community at a later time. I have no specifics yet as to what they should be other than my previous real Army experience and that might not translate exactly to our hobby, so I dare not venture there.

I still feel as a community self-policing action that it is still a very good idea to have a safety officer on all 3 sides of some sort to centralize all safety concerns around and make it someone that is not worried about participating in the action in any way.

Again, anyone in a safety position such as this should probably take great heed not to crush the fun of others. There is a fine line to walk with an effort such as this, but if the duty of safety officer is done by the right person who is judicious, the average reenactor would not know the safety officer is there.

For alll future intent and discussion, I'll drop the term "OC or referee" because of its misleading connotations. 'Safety officer' would probably be more appropriate of a term.

Your friend- Johnny Lloyd :wink_smil

[Hank Trent]

Re: Event legal medical obligations

Hi Johnny,

Just noticed you edited your post, so I'll edit mine to match, since I think I have a better understanding of what you mean now due to the explanation in the edit.

I thought you'd agreed that an officer/controller to try to influence period interactions would be pointless for the civilians, but this was something entirely different--a modern safety only person for each of the "3 sides" meaning one for the civilians too.

I can picture a safety-only person for the military inspecting weapons, marching with the main body of the regiment, stopping the action when the firing distances were too close or if bayonets were fixed at the wrong time, etc. (but not necessarily calling hits or winners/losers), having a first aid kit and a radio to reach the local ambulance squad or on-site medical volunteers, a GPS to direct outside medical personnel in, etc. etc. He'd be right there, with the main body of soldiers, doing whatever they did, available within shouting distance and watching over them.

Totally aside from the issue of cutting into the participants' fun, I don't understand how a safety-only person for civilians/bushwhackers would operate when they're so spread out. That's all that's puzzling me. If the answer is, I dunno, it depends, we'd have to work it out, that's a fair enough answer for me. :)

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[yankeecav]

Re: Event legal medical obligations

Everyone keeps trying to make the following link: that having a standardized medical procedure in place will reduce your liability exposure.

DO NOT make this assumption.

Once a standardized medical procedure is in place you had better make sure that if something happens that you follow that procedure to the letter, each and every step.

Because if you miss a step or do one of the steps differently than what was in your procedure a lawyer is going to rip your a** in court for the deviation.

This is all in addition that there may be no legal duty to provide a standardized medical procedure for an event. Having no duty then there would no increased liability exposure if there was an accident and no procedure was in place.

BUT if, in spite of having no legal duty to provide one, you adopt a standardized medical procedure you have now assumed the legal duty to have a proper procedure that is always followed and you have opened yourself to increased liability if it is not followed.

So understand that while having a medical policy and procedure in place may increase safety it will almost certainly DOOM you in a court of law if the policy and procedure is not followed to the letter and followed all the time.

I should also mention that this medical policy and procedure will be scrutinized for its medical efficacy. Who is going to put this procedure in place? A doctor, nurse, EMT? Who is going to implement the policy? A doctor, a nurse, an EMT, a layreenactor with no/limited medical knowledge?

These are all great questions. As comrades in the hobby we all want to "do right" by each other. If doing right means saving a life at the risk of your own financial welfare then I have no problem with implementing a medical plan.

If, on the other hand, you think that implementing a medical plan will decrease your risk of being sued or found liable you are really kidding yourself

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Event legal medical obligations

Hallo!

And more basically... who defines, and in what ways, what is the reasonable standard for defining and operationalizing what is the expectation and reality of what constitues "safety" in a hobby/pastime/activitiy that is inherently unsafe for some participants?

-A physical from a doctor that the participant is not too old, too out-of-shape, too medically at-risk, to be bundled up in wool and exerting himself out on the field in 100 degree heat and 90% humidity?

-Poisonous snake bites, or bee/wasp sting allergies? (Where's the "Epi" pen when you really need it...) Sleeping under a tree in a thunderstorm?

- or nothing more sinister than using weapons capable of discharging projectiles (burning gases, powder, bullets, Minie skirts, cleaning jags, ramrod tips, ramrods, Wonder Wads, etc., ) at folks at Point Blank range to yards away?

Between varying federal and state liability issues, a culture that has drifted away from personal accountability and responsibilty on one hand and being suit-crazy on the other, and the Nature of the Beast that simulation and/or emulation of history IS an inherently risky and dangerous at times form of recreation (although paper cuts from stamp collecting can be a pain)- what desireable, mutually agreed upon, formal, applicable, enforceable policy/protocol/procedure/code can we enumerate, enact, apply, enforce, and see stand any reasonable chance of serving the CW (or any period) Community and "surviving" law suits?

Beats me...

Others' mileage, and perceptions, will vary...

Curt
Who also does more dangerous 20th Century Living History

[Dale Beasley]

Re: Event legal medical obligations

I am going with Appendix G...;) Really , I am.

Two thoughts on this...and I must get back to work, having to do L&D today.

1. It's all about Preventive Medicine.

2. It doesn't take a weather man to tell you which way the wind blows--Bob Dylan.

[Charles Heath]

Re: Event legal medical obligations

Dale,

It is a good starting point, even if it is circa 1991, and revived a few years later for the 2nd Brigade. Some groups take the initiative to train their members in basic first aid. Some groups are blessed with a plethoria of EMS and other medical professionals in real life. Some even provide their members with the benefit of entomology and/or herpetology classes, as education. Yet other groups provide nothing, and yet others aren't even incorporated, don't invest in event insurance, or even offer their membership basic reenacting insurance. While there is no need to beat this to death, as it has already been pounded into a fine talc in a number of other threads, the "adult issues" in the hobby are changing, and the first time the "Five Man Way Kewl Mess" rolls up to their favorite NPS LH site, and is asked for a "$5,000 security deposit," some folks may be in for a wake up call. Double that for the use of two properties, and the deposit is "$10,000." Some producers of formerly free programs may need some deep pockets for the 150th anniversary cycle.

This digression is straying from medical, but the above is a good illustration of the direction the admin side of the hobby is headed, so back to that.

Fewer and fewer sites are allowing equines, but providing for their medical needs is important as well, and that goes beyond having the contact info for a couple of local farriers, the local large animal vet, the nearest large animal hospital, and, God forbid, the nearest renderer. I'll leave out the usual details, because they have been hacked to death time and time again. Having a vet tech in the ranks is good, but if that vet tech has nada to work with, well, that sets up a whole 'nuther circus. Need I mention that event?

Back to "human" medical....

I can picture a safety-only person for the military inspecting weapons, marching with the main body of the regiment, stopping the action when the firing distances were too close or if bayonets were fixed at the wrong time, etc. (but not necessarily calling hits or winners/losers), having a first aid kit and a radio to reach the local ambulance squad or on-site medical volunteers, a GPS to direct outside medical personnel in, etc. etc. He'd be right there, with the main body of soldiers, doing whatever they did, available within shouting distance and watching over them.

Hank, something similar to this has been incorported into the better events for a long time, and it appears to work. There are times when the injury is serious enough, or suspected to be serious enough, that the entire event is temporarily shut down, or in the terminology of an earlier operational era "goes administrative" to sort things out. Whether or not the participants read and understand their pre-event information is perhaps a larger concern. After all these years, how many of the 350 or so active participants in the hobby still don't know the significance of red, white, blue, green, and yellow springs on a map? This is something to consider.

In the several published and unpublished event "how-to" articles, checklists, and Power Point presentations, the pre-event medical prep gets a decent mention. An email or phone call would likely be of use at this time, and is recommended, although he is ramping up for ATB in November.

Tom Lowe brings up an excellent point about friends of friends who aren't necessarily friends of us or our friends or even friendly to the hobby, and this is well illustrated by the Monmouth case. I suggest anyone and everyone with an interest in this revisit that situation, because it went far beyond a "what if."

Then there is the issue of park visitors and event spectators. That is a whole tractor trailer load of loaded worm cans.

[yankeecav]

Re: Event legal medical obligations

This shall be my last post in this thread. This thread was begun by Hank who was inquiring about legal/medical concerns and as such I don't think was ever intended as a discussion of the medical concerns only. See the initial post from Hank and the thread title.

The medical thread was a separate thread begun by Dale and raises legitimate concerns regarding medical issues at events.

My sole purpose in posting was to make sure that while having a medical protocol will almost certainly make us more prepared for emergencies it does not give an event or its participants more legal protection and may in fact make it more susceptible to liability issues.

Having made this point ad nauseum I now leave it to individuals and groups to decide on their own. If you are having an event in Indiana and would like my advice my rate is $150 an hour.

[Dale Beasley]

Re: Event legal medical obligations

Tom,
Don't run off...when I can catch my breath I want run my op order by you. Pro bono of course? :)

[Hank Trent]

Re: Event legal medical obligations

This shall be my last post in this thread. This thread was begun by Hank who was inquiring about legal/medical concerns and as such I don't think was ever intended as a discussion of the medical concerns only.

Tom, thank you for posting, and I hope you won't run off, because that's exactly the kind of thing I was curious about.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Dale Beasley]

Ladies, Gentlemen, and those of you from Texas,

First my wife’s mother is from Texas and she is much a lady….so this “Old Horse” has learned a few things in life. Keep the mother in law happy, and your stock rises.

We have talked a lot on this subject. We brought the horse back to life just to kick it again. We have heard a lot of opinions from many well versed individuals in the legal field. But my original point is this.

We must provide a standard reasonable plan of medical action to insure the safety and welfare of our reenacting soldier.

A Physician and or a Nurse would be putting themselves far too much at risk by attempting to accept the medical responsibility of any event. Where a Nurse and or a Doctor could practice across state lines, providing medical care to the level of their practice is impossible. The level of their practice would be what they would be held accountable to if litigation would arise. A Paramedic could practice the tools of their practice if a protocol was followed with the State of the Event and the Local Providing Medical Facility and or EMS Control. Time does not permit for this. Nor does the Paramedic have the tools of his or her trade to practice to the level of their scope.

BOTTOM LINE:

The only logical person to practice is the First Responder. Having a First Responder/Combat Life Saver could provide the minimal amount of reasonable care until EMS arrives.

What I am working on is a standard method of check-offs that an Event Organizer or Commander can use to insure that a reasonable about of care and planning occur, and a method to properly maintain credentials of the First Responder. And to insure that individuals do not act outside of their scope of practice again.

[AZReenactor]

Re: Event legal medical obligations

Dale,
I don't know that we have all reached the same conclusion you have. While I agree that being prepared to address an emergency situation is a darn good idea, the notion that event organizers are obligated to provide me medical care should I do something stupid may be overreaching. As Hank pointed out, not all events have participants in a static camp where there is someone there to make sure everyone is healthy.

I occasionally get together with a group to go paint-balling out in the desert. We don't have a dedicated first aid kit, nor action plan. Should I expect the fellow who invited me or the person who started the phone tree to be obligated to take on responsibility (beyond just being a pard and a good Samaritan) for my safety?

Several years ago, I went out off-roading with a group of friends and had a vehicle accident resulting in the snapping of the bolts holding my seat-belt and allowing me to crash headfirst into the windshield. This being before the advent of cell phones we raced to the hospital in a friends truck with my head wrapped in a couple of t-shirts to staunch the bleeding while another friend kept talking to me to keep me conscious. Should I be angry (or even consider legal action) because the fellow who came up with the idea to go out didn't have a plan for my crash in place?

Now an example from our hobby. Last spring I participated in an event where I simply disappeared from a picket post and was AWOL for the a night and a day. I had alerted one pard to my plans (so that it was not treated as an emergency situation) but not anyone "in authority" and for that entire time, except while visiting with some refuges I was entirely on my own. What kind of plan should they have had in lace if I'd have stepped on a rattler while off the reservation.

I also like to go hiking (and have even organized period patrols) in wilderness areas where there are no roads and only spotty cell service for miles upon miles. These areas are invariably filled with dangers from snakes, javelina, coyotes, bears, falls, floods, lightning, heat, etc. etc. Aside from a snake bite kit, water filter tablets, a cell phone, and some rudimentary first aid knowledge, we had/have no plans beyond what any other hikers are likely to have in the area.

Considering the wide variety of types of reenacting people do, the notion that there is a one size fits all plan for emergency's that we can adopt doesn't quite stack up.

Perhaps it is because I'm out here in the far West where folks are still accustomed to the idea that a lot of the things we do are potentially dangerous and that help isn't always readily available, but I tend to take exception to the notion that anyone else is actually responsible for my well being. We do get some new people moving into the West now and then who think the state has some sort of paternalistic responsibility to keep them safe, but they either stay in town or tend not to live very long.

We must provide a standard reasonable plan of medical action to insure the safety and welfare of our reenacting soldier.

Szaying others "must" do something doesn't go over well here in the real West either...

[Dale Beasley]

Re: Event legal medical obligations

AZ,

Son, take a walk with me...

I said a few things earlier that would have started a good bar fight, one of which a good plan of medical evacuation would have been needed. So I am going to end this conversation with this.

If you left your post during an event. and did not notify your pards as to your plans... that was not very smart. If I was the commander/organizer of the event I would have packed your stuff and sent you on your way. People who I know "Out-West" are smarter than that.

A plan of action, is a plan. If it passes the "Common Sence Test" then it is a good plan. And if a good plan can save a life, then it was a good days work. Talk is cheap and life aint cheap.

I stand by my quote...

GO ARMY, BEAT NAVY....and watch dem LSU TIGERS do dere stuff.