Event legal medical obligations

[Spinster]

Re: Event legal medical obligations

Well now,

Hank's question never has gotten answered. And the only cases I'm intimately familiar with are only partially applicable, as they deal with minors--you know, the Boy Scouts/Girl Scouts/Explorers age group.

Still, here's what I would like to see accomplished for events of the sort we do here.

Identify those with actual medical credentials.

If the event does not have a decent number of them signed up, then recruit some.

Let folks know who these people are beforehand, or at the start of the event. Tell what their credentials are.

If possible, have some way to provide staff with the very basic tools of the trade--first aid kit, pressure cuff, mouthpiece for recessisitation.

In the event communications, explain the basic protocol to be used in such emergencies, including how evacuations would be accomplished. For some events held on some public lands, this sort of thing is part of the permitting process.

If a participant has a particular medical condition that may cause problems, provide a mechanism for them to inform medical staff before the event starts.

And in the event communications, be very clear about the conditions on site, the degress of remoteness, and the PERSONAL responsibility of the participant to see to it that they are able to deal with these conditions.

Several years back, the Trents put on a marvelous event "Struggle for Statehood". I really wanted to go. I was on the list-serve, and reading everything that went past. Early in that process, they gave a detailed description of the land, topography and accessibility. And I figured out right quick that if I had breathing problems, trying to get me out would at the very least blow up the event, and might even not be possible with any sort of speed. At that point, it became my responsibility to drop out--and I did. I continue to judge my capacity to stay out without reliable shelter or access to medical care on an event-by-event basis.

The challenge here is to balance personal responsibility, basic prudence, and a really really good time. With proper information, folks can do that.

[Dale Beasley]

Re: Event legal medical obligations

Miss Terre,

Having just read your thread, reminded me of something.....

"I may not know alot, but I know alot of people who do"

[lukegilly13]

Re: Event legal medical obligations

I've read this entire post twice. I can see this concern being an issue. Although I have seen several folks injured at mainstream events (where you're only a few hundred yards from parking and there are easy access lanes for an ambulance) I've never seen somone need to be evacuated from a progressive event where there's no access. I guess i'm revealing my experience with this side of the hobby. However I'd like to share a quote I was given from a law professor/attorney as I was studying to attend law school....in fact, this is what made me change my mind at the last minute:
A good Christian man, in life, should love thy neighbor, turn the other cheak, play the good samaritan, and in general just be a good hearted man. These actions store up your treasure in heaven. However, you should do this at an early age. For if you take this mentality and lifestyle to the courtroom, you'll need the treasure by the end of the court date.
The quote was spoken from experience as the attorney had lost his arse in a case concerning a failed CPR experience. At any rate, this is my 2cents:
A medical plan would be a fantastic idea. If there's a location on the registration to list medical/health problems....and one of those listen problems attack...then the reenactor had a known pre-existing condition and chose to participate anyway...would be difficult to bring legal charges. However, if the reenactor had to do something that would not generally be expected by anyone in the hobby...then they might have a case. This should not be a problem at a progressive event...you should expect to do military proceedures throughout the event and all that involves. Don't wish to take sides, nor comment on legal/medical advice. However, I think the previous post from Mrs. Lawson hits the nail on the head. I think you protect yourself if you say on the registration....here' s what we do in the case of an emergency...however, YOU need to know that YOU registered, YOU volunteered, and YOU are responsible for yourself. In my unexperienced probably worthless opinion.....the plan that is spoken of is a courtesy but not guaranteed TO Joe Progressive....but should not be expected, relied on, or planned on BY Joe Progressive. Basically, the proceedure doesn't need to be mentioned to no one but those involved in carrying it out. I would think, especially if you are properly trained as Dale Beasley no doubt is....then you would be protected by the good samaritan law as long as you did your best......it is my recollection that when I certified in CPR and Firt Aid...I was told that doing nothing is not always protected...doing your best is!

[Dale Beasley]

Re: Event legal medical obligations

Now an example from our hobby. Last spring I participated in an event where I simply disappeared from a picket post and was AWOL for the a night and a day. I had alerted one pard to my plans (so that it was not treated as an emergency situation) but not anyone "in authority" and for that entire time, except while visiting with some refuges I was entirely on my own. What kind of plan should they have had in lace if I'd have stepped on a rattler while off the reservation.

AZ,

I have not figured out how to do the "quote-thing" But Son, if you really did what you said above, I would have packed your stuff and sent you on your way. Until you reach a maturity level to understand that things aren't all about you, you are going to be a danger to yourself and to others.

Commanders in this hobby are unable to watch their soldiers but for just a short period of time. Kids like you are a nightmare to have to supervise...I had two in Iraq, that just did their "own-thing", like you. Note, I did not say command, I said supervise....I should have said "baby-sat".

Now, I know you have the ability to edit my post and simply to do away with it, and that is "your power", but what needed to be said ...needed to be said, and your stock as a moderator has dropped.

[Hank Trent]

Re: Event legal medical obligations

I have not figured out how to do the "quote-thing" But Son, if you really did what you said above, I would have packed your stuff and sent you on your way. Until you reach a maturity level to understand that things aren't all about you, you are going to be a danger to yourself and to others.

This is why, in my opinion, an innocent protestation that it's only about safety and caring for others, can have a negative side.

This isn't the real army. There's not necessarily a legal, or even moral, responsibility for one adult to care for another to any particular degree in real life, and that's what I was curious about when I started this thread. What is the legal responsibility?

Not every participant and not every organizer has the same idea about risks, rewards, enjoyments, what the hobby "should" be, what participants should be allowed to do, and so forth. An organizer or land-owner can legally eject a participant who fails to follow the rules, but is there a legal requirement that every organizer should have certain rules in place? Especially rules that are only designed to save people from themselves rather than from others?

Commanders in this hobby are unable to watch their soldiers but for just a short period of time. Kids like you are a nightmare to have to supervise

I fully agree with what Troy Groves has posted, so it's not just a western thing, nor related to age. I'm 48. I don't have or need anyone, outside of the law, to "supervise" me in real life.

When I attend events, I try to follow the rules as I understand them. But I think reenactors are overstepping their bounds if they believe that attendance at an event means that participants have, by definition, entered into an adult-child relationship with the organizers or, worse yet, with all medical personnel or fellow reenactors who are not organizers.

If someone wants to put on events like that, and some reenactors enjoy that kind of experience, fine. But I don't believe it's a legal, emotional, moral or any other kind of requirement that all legally-adult reenactors must become like children, supervised by reenactor-parents to protect them from themselves, when they reenact.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[lukegilly13]

Re: Event legal medical obligations

Dale,
Check out the following link
www.ncwa.org/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_download&gid=93
On page 14-15 you will find the description of the First Aid and Safety Committee of the National Civil War Association in an issue of The Dispatch from May 2004.

[Dale Beasley]

Re: Event legal medical obligations

Hank,

Now, I will tell you, It ain't about you. If you have acted on your own, without permission and without respect for those who have taken the time to plan and command, I would personally pack your stuff as well and escort you off the field. I thought you had more sence than to make such a thread. But I was wrong. I guess you can't argue with stupid. This medical operation plan is needed more than I thought.

Luke,

Thanks alot, your a good man. Hooah!

[Hank Trent]

Re: Event legal medical obligations

Hank,

Now, I will tell you, It ain't about you.

So who is it about? You and your idea of what organizers should do?

If you have acted on your own, without permission and without respect for those who have taken the time to plan and command, I would personally pack your stuff as well and escort you off the field. I thought you had more sence than to make such a thread. But I was wrong. I guess you can't argue with stupid.

You talk about respect in the same paragraph that you throw around words like "stupid." That shows me a lot about where you're coming from.

Who defines "permission"? Prior specific permission or spur-of-the-moment action within the broad guidelines? Who defines "respect"?

At Westville, I'm getting permission step-by-step from the organizers, right down to the slang I can use, because the organizers are under tighter scrutiny there from the public, the host site, etc. At Marmaduke's Raid, plans were broader and more open, with only general guidelines--more like what Troy described.

If I do what's within the guidelines of an event, and the organizers and the majority of participants are okay with that, but you'd use different definitions, well, I guess you can call names all you want, if that makes you happy. And if you're in charge of an event, you can run it however you want, and I'll either follow your rules or not come.

But the main thing I care about is that there's not an attempt to turn every event into what Dale Beasley approves of, because it's not all about you either, and many reenactors, like Troy and me for example, may enjoy something different some of the time.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Dale Beasley]

Re: Event legal medical obligations

Hank,

I am coming from.... out working in the barn, putting up an area that protects our young "Mama-Cows" when they have thier first offspring. You know those young mama-cows have not a clue of what could happen to them on their first birthing. They can't help it, they just cows. An Army/Fraternity Buddy is out here in the barn with me, and he can't understand why I even address you. I tell him your alot like "The Brains" in a Fraternity...ya gotta have him, they just don't know know their way around a baseball field.

Just like you and AZ, you both just can't help it.

I realize I will be unable to walk you threw this, but that is ok, there are people out there that protect you. You have always brought me much entertainment on these threads. You have always brought to light much to me, but today, your stock has dropped. But if you are going to quote me, please do so correctly, I said "You can't argue with stupid"

Now, I am going to go down to a local juke joint to shoot pool and drink a few beers, watch some LSU Football, I'll touch base with you later. But one more thing, this has gotten way off subject, if you want to help put a Medical Operations Plan together, then help us, if not, get out of the way.

[Hank Trent]

Re: Event legal medical obligations

But one more thing, this has gotten way off subject, if you want to help put a Medical Operations Plan together, then help us, if not, get out of the way.

Actually, for this thread, the subject is what legal obligations event organizers have to care for participants. Tom Lowe and others have made some good points that it's not as simple as it seems, and Terre and others have made some good points about personal responsibility.

The legal obligations for those who have custody over cattle and children would be different, but I'm curious about adults--and other reenactors besides you are adults too, regardless of your personal opinion of them.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Dale Beasley]

Re: Event legal medical obligations

Hank,
Damn'it, your right again. I almost hijacked your thread. Isn't it something how our worlds can cross on a beautiful day, like today. I am going to put together a plan, and I am going to let you talk about it, fare enough? Plus I can't type on this Blackberry and drink beer at the sametime.

[Hank Trent]

Re: Event legal medical obligations

Dale,

But this has been such a nice diversion from sorting and packing all day. :D Got to move everything out, in preparation for our new mobile home. Gittin' a double-waaad! We is movin' up in the world.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Dale Beasley]

Re: Event legal medical obligations

Good luck with the move. Enjoy your new home.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Event legal medical obligations

Hallo!

Moderator hat on...

Stop the personal insult.

Curt

[AZReenactor]

Re: Event legal medical obligations

{LOL} {sigh} Ok, without dragging this out still further. It seems you missed the my point altogether.

A good many of the events we talk about in this forum fall outside your typical battle, beer, and ball events of the mainstream and involve a heck of a lot of role playing that can take participants well beyond the range of standing in line during a scripted battle or camping on a canvas lined company street. I see no need to justify or try and explain the scenario being played out when it was discovered that a picket was not at his post as was thought. I will however point out the fact that your encounter with soldiers in your own service who did their own thing actually helps to validates the scenario.

Something you seem to fail to realize is that this hobby is really just so much play acting. Those "in authority" have no actual commission or legal authority, only the respect of their peers who allow them to play the role of having authority. While we may play the role of subordinate, we have in no ways surrendered our responsibility for ourselves. Since the roles being played out require independent thinking and action any sort of catch all medical action plan would likely be a very poor fit indeed.

Fortunately, the risks we take, even during mock combat, are no more inherently dangerous than those encountered by any other hiker and camper and a good deal less dangerous then those encountered by someone hunting (like say with the vice president on a quail farm). In trying to help recreate scenarios and vignettes to play out on the reenacting field it is at times valuable to be the bad soldier, hidden refugee, lone courier, etc. etc. etc. In such solitary and independent roles in out of the way places during reenactments the need to be aware of and responsible for ones own safety is highlighted, but in truth, is no different than at any other time. Life itself is dangerous, playing soldier is really no more so than many other activities that people participate in.

As for your attempts at an insult and impugning my character, I'll let them stand as your opinion is really of no consequence to me. You do not know me and, while you are indeed quite out of line, rather than bother trying to educate you, I'll continue to let my actions speak for themselves. Perhaps we'll find ourselves at the same event someday and you can make an actual informed decision about my character.

AZ,

I have not figured out how to do the "quote-thing" But Son, if you really did what you said above, I would have packed your stuff and sent you on your way. Until you reach a maturity level to understand that things aren't all about you, you are going to be a danger to yourself and to others.

Commanders in this hobby are unable to watch their soldiers but for just a short period of time. Kids like you are a nightmare to have to supervise...I had two in Iraq, that just did their "own-thing", like you. Note, I did not say command, I said supervise....I should have said "baby-sat".

Now, I know you have the ability to edit my post and simply to do away with it, and that is "your power", but what needed to be said ...needed to be said, and your stock as a moderator has dropped.