Attitude

[Hairy Nation Boys]

Re: Attitude

Raymond 1998 myself, Andrew Goode and another fellow were having a great conversation about Abe Lincoln, trains etc. when this guy comes up and sits down with us. At first he was doing a really good job until he started talking abotu diesel trains. Talk about ruining a moment.

Hank you are right about picking and choosing when to talk modern. I had a friend of mine (this person is now a Nation Boy) who was brand new to the hobby. We had sent e-mails to one another. I told him whatever yo do do not call me by my real name. I will not respond. Well, he called me by my real name and I told him I never heard of that fellow.

To add to what I stated about modern talk. We usually go for a walk or two or three of us meet. This does not turn into a meeting. I hate talking modern at events but it happens. Just like students in my class. I know they are going to talk about other things than why did WWII happen so why fight it. Give those that need to talk about the next event do so in a private way. In the 12th Iowa Company C members were alway leaving for "Seasons of Prayer" guess that is our way of having a "Season of Prayer." Just so you know this isn't happening every twenty minutes. We set this practice so that we could in priavte ask how a pard is doing and not offend others. Hank, you and I are on the right path. Want to come to the Lost Tribes?

Those that want to do it will. And those that won't will be standing at the snow cone line. :)

First person also works when you have a core group that you are always with. So far going to events with the ONV, Hardcase we have developed a bond. We now share common experiences. We can laugh at each other because we know each other. I think we get caught up in tactics, uniforms etc when we forget that these guys were brothers, cousins, friends, neighbors. They knew and trusted (Or didn't trust) on antoher.

First person works! It just takes time. Yes, you have to read. But you also need to know and trust those around you. As captain of Company B myself and the other officers and NCO's are going to work hard to create the experience that we want.

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Attitude

Do not dramatize or otherwise change your natural speaking voice. It is a natural thing to do. Ever try out or see someone try out for a dramatic production and they over push the "acting" in their voice and enunciation ? It sounds instantly disingenuous.

Natural speaking voice. Especially avoid a fake drawl.

[Pat.Lewis]

Re: Attitude

Leave it to Lee White to write exactly what I was thinking.

But adding to that, I don't think firper should be the ultimate destination of our research efforts. There is simply more to be learned here than just having a kewl conversation around the campfire. When you actually start to delve into the social fabric of a military unit, an entire community's worldview opens up to you. The greatest thing about these events is getting to glimpse the war through a different set of eyes each time. As Lee was saying, though, each set of those eyes is radically different -- even if some are fighting for the same "cause." A more perfect understanding of past events can only be achieved by trying on those different sets of eyes and understanding the past (object) from as many different perspectives (subject) as possible. Then and only then will this war begin to make sense.

Good campfire conversations may, then, follow if they will. But reenactors -- to generalize, if unpopularly -- are woefully undereducated about the war's big issues and effects even if they can draw up an order of battle for a X engagement or discuss the difference between jeans and satinette. The material impression is important, don't get me wrong, but there's far more good academic scholarship being produced right now than there are new widgets being found to reproduce. Perhaps we could -- should -- reallocate some of our time.

Research! Research will set you free!

[Hairy Nation Boys]

Re: Attitude

I agree with you Pat. That is why we selected many years ago to portray the men of Co.G 11th Iowa. These men were recruited out of Henry county Iowa. We have researched the unit, the town, the county, the townships, occupations, read the Mt.Pleasant Home Journal. This has added to what we are.

Now the issue is portraying other regiments from other states. We usually once again research where these men came from.

It is so much easier today than it was ten years ago. That is one good thing for the internet.

I agree with educating. One of the most shocking aspects of reenacting is how many people do this that have no idea what their history is.

By the way fake Irish accents, southern (fake) accents really tick us off. I am not spending time away from my family to listen to the Lucky Charms character or Martin Sheen.

Thomas, good post! What it has done is get us thinking about our first person and the upcoming season.

I can't wait!

[ajroscoe]

Re: Attitude

I think a little research goes a long way to make your impression. Obviously, the more you know, the better it is. Unfortunately, the information on many individuals is simply not there, unless you can physically go to the town to visit the historical society, ect. But I think knowing as much as possible about the region, religion, politics, ect of the area can give you an idea of what environment that person was raised in, and how that would have shaped his development and attitudes.
As for accents, especially Irish ones, well first please don't do them, but there are ways to make it clear of the origin of your person without spouting "top of the mornin' to ya." When I was at AHT in Doug Cooper's co, I called him "Leftenant Sinclair" all weekend. You bet his head when up in camp every time he heard "leftenant." It didn't require a bad accent, just using a common pronunciation that a person is more unlikely to loose over a long period of time than an actual accent. The nuances of any act (which as was stated by others, is what first person to an extent is) make the act.

[csabugler]

Re: Attitude

Is it possible that the term "first person" has done more damage to this side of the hobby than "hardcore"?
There is a difference between conversation and a scripted scenario.
I have had many conversations dealing with modern issues in a period tone. Such as "we ran into bad traffic on the way to the event" would be "our regiment rode in from Chattanooga and found the road to be frequently impassable " or someting like that. " My computer is so slow" might be "the elderly fellow who delivers the post has past his prime, and delivery is frequently delayed".
A passerby would hear those remarks and have no idea that it was regarding interstate traffic or the internet.
Doing indepth research on a character is great, I have no intention of discouraging that. Please don't respond implying that I am. But don't be afraid to venture into a conversation because you don't know how to do "first person". Avoid known modern terms like "dude" and "imho" and take a shot at it. If you are commuting to the event practice on the way.
Even if you are awkwark and stumble some, it will be far better than "Dude, the traffic sucked!"

IMHO :D

[Hank Trent]

Re: Attitude

Hank, you and I are on the right path. Want to come to the Lost Tribes?

Already planning on it. :D

First person also works when you have a core group that you are always with.

In my experience, it also works among strangers if they take a little time to figure out who they and what their connection is beforehand. At Piney Woods, I'll have a "sister" I've never reenacted with before and a "neighbor" I've reenacted with a few times but never in these roles. I fully expect we'll be in first person for the duration of the event, as has happened in the past under similar circumstances.

It's always seemed to me as strange to stop reenacting and talk about modern things, as it would be to put on sneakers instead of brogans in the midst of an event.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Drygoods]

Re: Attitude

It's always seemed to me as strange to stop reenacting and talk about modern things, as it would be to put on sneakers instead of brogans in the midst of an event.

Sneakers? What are THEY even doing in the car? When I leave the driveway, I've already got my period glasses on my head, my hair twisted and set, and rather little modern beyond a t-shirt with long sleeves on me. (avoid sunburns in the car if I can't reach my shawl) Why would anyone bring anything modern, beyond medication, with them to an event?

I guess if you're at a mainstream event, you can talk about modern things at night, but if you're going hardcore, who would embarrass themselves with modern topics? And even in they did do this, is there any harm in pointing out their error? I'd say something. The best part of interpretation is being in character for as long as possible and seeing how far the conversation, and actual time event, will take you along with everyone else. Yes, a lot of doing what's right is done because of the company you keep, maintain, and continue searching for at other events.

Mr. Trent, I know that you'd never have sneakers.:D

[Nathan Dodds]

Re: Attitude

As for accents, especially Irish ones, well first please don't do them, but there are ways to make it clear of the origin of your person without spouting "top of the mornin' to ya."

In my opinion accents are very important. If you were a Southern soldier you would have a Southern accent if you grew up in the South during the Civil War. If you grew up in the north you WOULD have had a northern accent. Accents differed from state to state and from county to county. So to truly be authentic you need to study and learn your regional accent if you don't have one. It's like learning another language. You have to forget about making a fake drawl and listen to someone from the area you're portraying-- carefully observing how they do every nuance of their speech. Picking a few old people that have spent their whole life in an area is the safest method. Then practice doing it naturally.

[ElizabethClark]

Re: Attitude

How do account for drift, though? Language now in particular areas doesn't bear a whole lot of resemblance to language recorded in the early 1900s in those areas, and going back another half-century, things are different yet. Mimicking a modern southern or northern accent is not neccessarily any more accurate than just using your own normal voice.

(I'd rather hear non-accented language with good information to share.)

[Becky Morgan]

Re: Attitude

Language drift is likely much more pronounced (no pun intended) than we think. Even guessing by the common misspellings in letters may not give us the real thing. What's in the neighborhood now may be the best we can do, and then only if it doesn't sound fake. A pasted-on accent is more jarring to me than a woman with a zipper on her dress.

There's also the person-specific aspect of language. A man who has traveled extensively in the Army, is a West Point graduate, and serves on a general's staff most likely wouldn't sound like his neighbor, who never left their small mountain town until he enlisted as a private. Neither of them was likely to sound like their other neighbor, educated in a female seminary and sent off to Europe for finishing school, nor would her elderly maidservant who was captured in Africa sound like her. There will be points of commonality (especially when Colonel Veteran gets mad), and points of difference (when Miss Uppercrust scatters French phrases about.) Even today, age, degree of education, breadth of experience and--never to be glossed over--the desire to sound highfalutin' affect what people say and how they say it. If we know what a person sounded like, that's all right. If we have to guess, it's best to guess kindly.

[KarinTimour]

Re: Attitude

"Southern soldiers should have southern accents."

"I hate the sound of a pasted on accent."

Accents are one of those areas where "a miss is as good as a mile." Those of us with good ears will be listening for our regional accents. Yes, I suppose there are those with professional voice coaches who can get the accent perfect -- they say that when Renee Zellwinger showed up at the wrap party for the cast of "Miss Potter" speaking her native Texan, the rest of the group was shocked, as she had determinedly used her "Beatrix Potter" accent 24/7 during the weeks of filming.

I was raised in Detroit and moved to southern Indiana when I was 8. I was just young enough that I picked up a bit of a Kentuckiana accent. It's much more pronounced when I'm around someone with a twang, but I never, ever attempt to pass myself off as a Virginian or a Texan. My back story always involves being born in the Midwest and having lived in southern Indiana, either working there or being taken in by relatives. Southern soldiers included people who were born in many foreign countries, people who were born in the North and moved South for business or when their parents did early in their lives. Though we talk about common people as though they never traveled far from their homes, I've been struck over the years by just how many people were on the move in the years before the war. All that land that became available after the Trail of Tears was settled by a bunch of people who didn't grow up in Alabama. The push to get to Texas in the 1830s would have put a lot of people there who were born somewhere else, but their father had a dream. Even areas that we think of as settled by that point had wilderness areas that were settled by people who grew up somewhere else. Michigan became a state in the early 1800s, but central Michigan, where much of my family settled in the early 1800s, was one step from a howling wilderness even in the 1850s. My grandfather would quote from a letter recieved from his grandfather's second cousin. He wrote back to Ohio when the draft was announced and told his fellow cousins to head for the woods and swamps north of Ionia County "they'll never find you there."

What about workers who followed the work? My gggrandfather was a lumberjack in Canada, then settled in Western New York, then moved on to cut down half of Michigan (he had help). His first language was French, and Canadian French at that. My gggrandmother was a cook for the lumber camps whereever they went and the kids were raised in whatever place they were cutting down at the time. I'm sure it affected his English, and his children (some born in Canada, others born in Western New York) didn't sound like people who grew up their whole lives in Michigan. If you were building railroads or canals, or your father was, you'd be living and getting your childhood accent from the people around you.

What about people who fled an area because of constant sickness? We often pay little attention to the role that epidemic disease played in our ancestor's lives. When yellow fever came through for the third time in three years, and for the second year in a row one of your siblings died, and your mother decided that everyone else was moving or she was taking the kids and heading to her mother's home, well, you'd get moved to another location, possibly far from where you were born.

Researching a few of the events that could have affected your family (land rushes, gold or silver fever, economic booms or busts, new land opening up, falling in love with that sweet young thing up from Alabama for a summer visit with her cousin in Pennsylvannia), all can easily explain how you came to be wearing that particular uniform with an accent that doesn't sound local.

One of the common mistakes in first person is that people assume that they need to explain all of this to everyone. Remember, you were with these guys 24/7 for years before this point.

As civilians, we're often portraying people who have lived together in a small town or close around that area, for years or even generations. We have to be able to recognize the people we are reenacting with, and know their names and relationships. While the number of authentic civilians is smaller than the military side of the hobby, we keep gaining people as more and more of us get interested. But we have to recognize and know everyone by name during the event, and we often don't have a day or more at the event before we go live. Some events set up websites with the pictures, real names and the names each person will be using at the event so that we can learn each other's identities beforehand. It's also helpful to have a bit of each person's backstory. This doesn't have to be the responsibility of the event organizer -- they've often got a lot on their plate already. One of the participants who has the skills can be the point person, collecting the information and setting up a temporary site for others to read and learn over the weeks before the event. Hint: Big pictures of people's faces are crucial -- a group shot the size of a postage stamp that says "Harry is the sixth from the left" is too small to help someone who has never met Harry recognize him.

Another help is to sign your emails to others attending the event with your event name and rank for the months leading up to the event. Over time that helps them get it set in their mind. In a military organization, it's easier, because if you know that someone is Sgt., then that narrows down which Sgt. they likely are.

Hope that's helpful,
Karin Timour
Period Knitting -- Socks, Sleeping Hats, Balaclavas
Atlantic Guard Soldiers' Aid Society
Email: Ktimour@aol.com

[Auld Pelty]

Re: Attitude

Years ago I attended a business school and a young man from Arkansas had to ask the South Carolinian instructor to repeat something. The yankees got a big kick out of the exchange because they could not detect the difference in accents and thought all Southerners spoke the same.

And I still cannot tell a New York accent from a Boston accent. At IPW, I will shoot everyone in blue uniforms and take their knapsacks even if they talk like Andy Griffith or play a banjo like Roy Clark.


"If you are going to be underestimated by people who speak more rapidly, the temptation is to speak slowly and strategically and outwit them."

----Doris Betts

[Becky Morgan]

Re: Attitude

Forgive a modern intrusion for a moment, because it does illustrate my point:
A few years ago a large chain bought some local stores. The chain discarded the previous name as "too sophisticated for that area" and graced grand re-opening day with a commercial produced in their New York offices. It was what they thought "those people" would like and sound like--bad banjo twanging (I can't call it music), thick phony "generic Southern" accents, and the woeful tendency to yell "Shucks far!" about everything.
That's the dead worst than can happen. Any messed-up accent less ghastly than that will still be jarring, but not quite THAT bad.

The issue of spies during the war comes to mind. A spy with any kind of distinct accent s/he can't turn off is at a disadvantage that can be fatal. Explaining why you sound like New York society when you're in rural Georgia might be a survival skill in that situation. Ms. Timour makes a very valid point about mobility; people did move around (some of mine from Virginia to Ohio in the late 1840s, others from unspecified hiding places in the North Georgia mountains to Ohio ten years later.) The most uniform accents would have been heard among regiments drawn from small, relatively stable towns or parts of major cities.

Another question: with anti-Irish prejudice so strong, has anyone found reference to the Irish trying to "Americanize" their speech? Late 19th/early 20th century immigrant classes are well documents, but was there any organized effort to sound less Irish in the 1860s? I do note Batchelor's Hair Dye advertised that it would cover every trace of gray and get rid of all red color in hair.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Attitude

Hallo!

I would suggest, advise, or recommend the old PBS series "The Story of English" and its companion book by Robert McCrum, William Cran, and Robert MacNeil.

The 1980's look of the filming is hard on the eyes, but the historical and linguistic content is excellent.

I have my own, but I believe both the VHS tapes (9? without looking) and the book should be findable through ILL.

I had always thought that language evolution was fairly slow, but it is not always so. While my German mother has lived in PA and OH for 60 yers, she still has a heavy German accent, but...

My brother-in-law was raised in Northern Ohio, where folks speak "unaccented" Inland Northern. After high school, he went to work in Southern Ohio where the West Virginia and Kentuckians he worked with speak South Midland. Within ten years, he had a very heavy South Midland accent to horror of his family, including adding one or two syllables to single syllable words.

My wife's friend, a New Zealander with a heavy New Zealand accent, lived in western New York (Inland Northern) and had three kids. When they moved to South Carolina, within three years they had a noticeable Southern accent.
When they moved to New Zealand, after two years they started to pickup that accent. Now that they have been back in the US for fifteen years, they are back to sounding like western New Yorkers.

I forget his name, but there was an American deserter from Viet Nam who disappeared on leave in Australia. When he came forward 30 some years later, he had the heavy Australian accent.

At any rate, a put-on modern Southern accent done badly is worse for an impression than one's own "voice." Well, maybe not as bad as a Lucky Charm Leprechaun for Irish or Scots.
Rat?

Curt