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  • The Two-Legged Stool???

    Is first-person a lost art? I doubt it, but I have not found it consistently applied in my short time in the living-history world. Now, I am guilty by association and have not stuck with first-person, so I believe I can openly admit that we all miss it. Just recently, I messed up another person who WAS doing rather well at first-person. Why, you ask, did I ruin this person's "period moment?" Well, by then I had given up. "Excuses, excuses, you should have worked harder." That is correct, I should have, but I did not.

    Before we can get into my point in writing this, there are a few things we should discuss, mainly, the "three-legged stool." There are plenty of writings about the "Man, Methods, and Material," but often I think we miss what it is all about. First on every list is the "Man." Why? Well, we cannot have materials or methods, or even something to recreate, without the "Man." The "Material" research is covered so thoroughly, I believe we focus all of our attention here and everything else can be damned. "Methods" are simple and easy to understand. We can spend a short amount of time in the drill book and then carefully listen, watch, and apply what our officers tell us to do. Sure, we make mistakes, but we quickly overcome this and the methods become second nature. Campaigner methods take a little longer, since we remove ourselves from many modern luxuries, but are quickly adapted to and applied.

    Now, to my point (finally, you say). Why do we lack the time and energy to apply the level of research we devote to materials into the "Man?" Research into the man does not require extensive research into each locale where a unit we may portray hails from. We simply must understand the basic events of the time and then have a good idea of society. This is mostly one time research. There are more sources than one person could imagine when it comes to understanding the greater society at large. It may seem overwhelming, but dig in and you will find it fairly simple. Take the views you have now and just apply them to the time. It is not hard to have an opinion on life, but you must stay consistent. Take your own personality and create your generic character. I do this for every event and then I hone my character to the locale. This is where research into the "man" gets a little deeper and more related to the scenario.

    Allow me to take you through the research into my last character. I took my knowledge of American society and what I knew about the region my character would be from. It was a border state and had people on both sides of the War. This knowledge allowed me some leeway in creating a good impression that was unique. I looked at the area my Federal company was from, found myself a little town and spent about 30 minutes reading about some of the local history. Then I found a Confederate unit that was raised in the area and looked at it's battle history. Since I was portraying a Federal unit, this may seem a little odd, but more on that to come. I knew that my event was early 1863 and that Confederate conscription was taking place all over in late 62. Now, here comes the kicker. My character had remained out of the war and at home with his wife until Confederate Conscription officers came and pressed me into service. The company I was assigned to was in the state and not far away when my character was pressed, so off my "Man" went to his unit. Not really feeling the whole secession thing, my "Man" felt it was time to take flight and at a battle where his conscripted unit was at he deserted and made his way to the Federal lines and where does he get placed when he volunteers? That is right, in the unit where men from his town were raised in the unit I was to portray. By the time this plan was made, I had a history, a local family name to use, a family name for my wife (if anyone asked), a home, a town, and I spent all of ONE HOUR. How hard was this? Not hard at all, I simply followed a single link from this forum that the event host had provided. One hour and I was set.

    Now, this hour spent was no different than any other time I have done pre-event character research. In fact, if anything, I spent more time on this one. What I found with my recent event, as with every other event I have attended, is that the first person was limited to little jabs back and forth, and for trading. I am not sure had I used my town, or history, if anyone would have caught on. Now, get this, with all of my first person planning, I was so far out of character by the time I encountered another person in first person that I messed up their time. How fair was that? Not fair at all.

    You may think I am here knocking my most recent event, but I am not. In fact, I enjoyed the event and thought it was quite good, but I missed the chance to have my research applied. I have not yet found a first person event, since I was unable to attend Westville (where I understand the first person was on-going the entire time) but I still seek it. Am I wrong in this? I think not. I simply think we are at a point where the stool has only two legs. "Material" and "Methods" mean more than the "Man."

    First Person Information from the AC
    [I][B]Brian T. McGarrahan[/B][/I]

    [URL="http://www.trampbrigade.com"]Tramp Brigade Mess[/URL]
    [URL="http://www.scarreenactors.com"]Southeast Coalition of Authentic Reenactors[/URL]
    [I][COLOR="DarkOrange"][B]GAME 07[/B][/COLOR][/I]

    [CENTER]"[B][SIZE="2"]I am just here to get my name in the program. Wildcats![/SIZE][/B]."[/CENTER]

  • #2
    Re: The Two-Legged Stool???

    Hallo!

    Am I wrong in this? I think not. I simply think we are at a point where the stool has only two legs. "Material" and "Methods" mean more than the "Man."

    IMHO... the addage, "Gold is where you find it." still rings true.

    No, the perfect stool has three legs. Adding the third leg is the rub, or the fly in the ointment as being the most difficult to attain and sustain, it is the harder or the three legs to nail down.
    And, throwing out analogies left and right... it is a pyramid paradigm in that as one climbs up, higher and higher, the fewer people one finds occupy that level.

    Many lads work very hard to develop the "Man, Material, and Methods," or "three legs" only to find that the events they find, and can find, are not much "condusive" to the use of all three- either at all, or in snips and snippets of captured but not sustain moments.

    IMHO, the most we were ever able to accomplish was a four day weakend.
    But even among some folks regarded as the "best" in their craft, and if not that certainly should have "known better" and been more disciplined, were unable to sustain 24 hours for four days without the cautionary warning "take care!" being given when they broke "first person."

    Still IMHO, the harder part is personal... what per centage of a 24 hour slice, or a 2-3 day weekend experience done as "three legs" is adequate "reward" for the preparation and effort to sustain it?
    In the end, that is a personal thing whether one has to have a solid 24-48-72 hour immersion- or whether somethng less all the way down to fractions of hours or minutes.

    "Firper" is not a lost art. It is a skill, a craft, and an evolving artform that can be hard, harder, to find and hard, harder, to find in pure blocks of shared time.
    But on the negative side, it can be a frustrating exercise in futility when one comes prepared and with the expectation of the Time Warp when the event and more particularly those one is around is "not on the same page."
    But the danger to self, is the failed expectation. Meaning, if one can only have 100%, but cannot find events or pards capable of only providing some per centage less than 100- the telescope can get inverted.

    "Firper" is not a lost art at all. But I might observe that as H/A's leave the "Hobby," they tend to be cyclical replaced by M's, C's, and P's, to whom
    the three legged stool is not, or has not, become part of their efforts, and "Thirper" is the Norm and Status Quo. (NOT a negative or criticism, just a reflection of differing Mental Pictures.)

    Others' mileage will vary...

    Curt
    Curt Schmidt
    In gleichem Schritt und Tritt, Curt Schmidt

    -Hard and sharp as flint...secret, and self-contained, and solitary as an oyster.
    -Haplogroup R1b M343 (Subclade R1b1a2 M269)
    -Pointless Folksy Wisdom Mess, Oblio Lodge #1
    -Vastly Ignorant
    -Often incorrect, technically, historically, factually.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: The Two-Legged Stool???

      We all do research for our impressions and units that we never get to use.. I too hope that that changes someday. It's hard enough to find folks who give a care about what you've researched, even when it pertains to the very unit they portray. Again, we must digress to exactly what brings some folks to the hobby. At least we try to set the standard the best we can for those mildly interested in truly representing those they portray on the field. I too try to do much research and pick a character or at least a common soldier to pattern myself and my actions around. I draw maps and flags and look up biographies and study hometowns.. All that to say I'm with ya! Keep fightin' the good fight and the others who just enjoy burning powder and dressing up will catch on to where the real joy is in the hobby.. HISTORY!
      Last edited by Jon The Beloved; 02-04-2009, 05:30 PM.
      Jon Harris


      Mang Rifles & Friends
      Ora pro nobis!

      ~ McIlvaine’s 64th Ohio Infantry at Missionary Ridge 11/2019
      ~ Head’s 49th Tennessee Infantry at Fort Donelson - Defending The Heartland 2/2020
      ~ Wever’s 10th Iowa Infantry at Bentonville 3/2020
      ~ Opdycke's 125th Ohio Infantry at Franklin, 1863 - For God and the Right 5/2020
      ~ Pardee’s 42nd Ohio Infantry during the Vicksburg Campaign 5/2020
      ~ Day's Silent Machines, 12th U.S. Regulars during the Gettysburg Campaign 6/2020


      sigpic

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: The Two-Legged Stool???

        I can say that I personally drug Brian out of his 1st Person at DR to inquire if he needed anything and basically to figure out if he was about to snap like some people do when they spend a considerable amount of time on the road, and end up behind enemy lines for the weekend.

        I have personally never gotten behind the theatric nature of what some people consider first person, I consider it pretty poor acting. I'm guilty of never developing a "character' for the weekend but in 99% of the cases, research the scenario and the impression of the weekend, but that is normally where my information stops.
        Patrick Landrum
        Independent Rifles

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: The Two-Legged Stool???

          Hallo!

          And perhaps it needs said...

          Does one "do" these things for oneself and one's own history, knowledge, skill, craft, and experience- or
          Does one require the sharing and interaction of pards first, or last before the "effort" is worth the work and the time to do it?

          IMHO, if one is self-motivated, or self-actualized, it does not matter.
          But if one is soley dependent upon 100% "reciprocity" back from pards and event-participants- one is NUG always doomed to failed expectations.

          However, alas I can be, and am, at times, growing increasingly guilty myself. I have grown "tired" of being the Wild Man from Borneo at the Sideshow and now bring the "A Game" only when at "those events" among pards and associates that can at least return a few minutes or hours' worth back in return.
          (Not that others are certainly not "worth the effort," just that sometimes, in one's Mind's Eye the effort can seem to be totally wasted if not unwanted...)

          Curt
          Curmudgeon Mess
          Curt Schmidt
          In gleichem Schritt und Tritt, Curt Schmidt

          -Hard and sharp as flint...secret, and self-contained, and solitary as an oyster.
          -Haplogroup R1b M343 (Subclade R1b1a2 M269)
          -Pointless Folksy Wisdom Mess, Oblio Lodge #1
          -Vastly Ignorant
          -Often incorrect, technically, historically, factually.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: The Two-Legged Stool???

            You know, I've noticed that the more time you spend talking to your mess mates the easier it is to stay in first person. Dont' get me wrong, it can still be a VERY difficult thing to do....however, if it's not the first time you've seen each other in months, you don't feel as much pressure to "catch up" or socialize. You know what each other has been up to modernly and you're actually interested to see what each other's been up to in their character. It also helps when each other's character can feed from each other. Just my opinion on a well needed conversation.
            Luke Gilly
            Breckinridge Greys
            Lodge 661 F&AM


            "May the grass grow long on the road to hell." --an Irish toast

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: The Two-Legged Stool???

              Brian,

              I'm pretty damn proud my quip about the "two-legged-stool" on our ride back to Charleston turned into a positive discussion about what you are looking for and what I've only found occasionally in this hobby. I have been in Civil War reenacting for three years and really less than two years in authentic or campaigner events, so please take my further comments as those of a relative new-comer.

              Eli, you put your best effort into the Duck River Line, the research was solid, the ground is excellent and the logistics first rate. It just happens mine and Brian's frustration coincide with your excellent effort and are based on the behavior of a minority of attendees.

              Ley, I'm going to dredge up some personal angst about a few of the Federals at Glendale/Malvern Hill. None of which you haven't heard privately from me, nor do I feel is yours or the organizing/supporting individuals fault at an excellent event on original ground.

              What I offer to the denizens of the AC, is why Civil War reenacting politics, modern sutlers, WWII reenacting, 20th century military conflicts and other such topics are discussed during Campaigner Events? My personal enjoyment of the Glendale/Malvern Hill event in April 2008 was diminished by some attendees discussing everything other than being a member of the 4th PA Reserves during the Peninsula Campaign in June of 1862.

              I can suspend disbelief at any event and discuss the food, the tactical situation and a hundred other things that are firmly rooted in the event scenario or guiding impression. My question to follow from Brian's well written post is...

              Why don't we put First Person interaction on the same level as clothing made from natural materials or proficiency with Casey's or Hardee's Drill? All three can be done with concerted, but reasonable effort.


              The Westville event in October 2008 has been brought up, I would also say the 2008 Winter of '64 had excellent First Person Interaction. The same individuals attended those events as did Glendale/Malvern Hill and the Duck River Line. With 50% or less of our events having good first person interaction, are we really building a stable stool and living history?

              Sorry for the lengthy discussion, those are my two dinar on this subject...
              Your Obedient Servant,

              Peter M. Berezuk

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: The Two-Legged Stool???

                Hallo!

                "Why don't we put First Person interaction on the same level as clothing made from natural materials or proficiency with Casey's or Hardee's Drill? All three can be done with concerted, but reasonable effort.

                "What do you mean 'we' Kemo Sabe?" :) :)

                To be cynical, jaded, and burned out- and to quote a saying attributed to Abraham Lincoln:

                "First class men hire first class men.
                Second class men hire fourth class men."

                Others' mileage will vary...

                Curt
                Curt Schmidt
                In gleichem Schritt und Tritt, Curt Schmidt

                -Hard and sharp as flint...secret, and self-contained, and solitary as an oyster.
                -Haplogroup R1b M343 (Subclade R1b1a2 M269)
                -Pointless Folksy Wisdom Mess, Oblio Lodge #1
                -Vastly Ignorant
                -Often incorrect, technically, historically, factually.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: The Two-Legged Stool???

                  Originally posted by Curt-Heinrich Schmidt View Post
                  To be cynical, jaded, and burned out- and to quote a saying attributed to Abraham Lincoln:

                  "First class men hire first class men.
                  Second class men hire fourth class men."
                  Well said Sir,

                  My question really was rhetorical in the end...

                  Looking forward to my next event, because I might be cynical, but hope I'm not jaded...
                  Your Obedient Servant,

                  Peter M. Berezuk

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: The Two-Legged Stool???

                    Brian and Peter,
                    I have made this suggestion to people with complaints before- by all means, host an event and show us how it should be done. Was 100% first person required in the event information? I didn't see it, and while I was a buzzkill for Brian on a few instances, after I had my conversation with him asking about how Deese was doing, and making sure he was comfortable (as could be) I did what I do with most people I know want to stay in that reference and went back to doing what I was doing, which in that particular case was either cooking sausage for the guys who hadn't eaten yet (was that hunger pain 100% correct?) or digging a trench and doing a Sgts job of calling several men in the platoon soft handed dandies.
                    Patrick Landrum
                    Independent Rifles

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: The Two-Legged Stool???

                      Why don't we put First Person interaction on the same level as clothing made from natural materials or proficiency with Casey's or Hardee's Drill? All three can be done with concerted, but reasonable effort.

                      Brian-

                      First up, I need to buy you a beer at Big John's when we're in Charleston. No, no... it's on me, friend. I insist. Relax and make fun of my Citadel nametag hanging just above the sticker of the 3rd National Confederate flag above the main door. We'll talk about that day in early 1998 later...

                      Second... You have a legitimate, open-ended question here. Really. I have wondered this too. Yes, as Curt says, 'others' mileage may vary' here, but I feel we mostly as guys are into the physical stuff- drill, shooting, ceremony, gear, etc. but when it comes to first person, most guys (yeah, guys mostly, I'll venture as not an overreach to say) are not comfortable with anything resembling 'acting' even if it adds to an event somehow. It just runs counter to 'macho' for many a man's instincts, and that's certainly fine- 'firper' ain't for everyone.

                      But, there are some guys at events (as well as women too) that can handle firper very well- dead-on actually. And there are some that understand what 'firper' is and don't handle it very well-almost laughable with twangy accents, shaky history timelines, and non-researched viewpoints with plenty of personal bias. It is my belief that what gets noticed is the latter category here, whilst the former category gets little attention on a larger scale.

                      Think of it, how many blatantly uneducated/unpracticed, fakey 'Irish' accents can you remember people doing at events and how you might have laughed at them then? Even the public, when invited to an open living history/preservation effort, can pick-out who sounds like the Lucky Charms leprachaun after hearing him talk. How about the 'lost causers/slaver-war-only pushers' who are full of modern-day views of the war have you talked to that obviously don't bother to crack a book on the period to study period viewpoints in your travels have you met before at events and remembered?

                      So, with such bad press the 'firper' impressionist gets (sometimes well-earned, sometimes not), can you blame some guys for shying away from such cumbersome effects? My feelings on this are that you can easily screw-up 'firper' and get a bad name doing so amongst comrades who remember such less-than-Oscar acting, so unless you're DEAD sure of what the heck you're doing, then why bother?

                      My personal feeling on 'firper' is that it sure can be fun to do when done right and one feels confident of the subject, but it isn't a must for me or others to do around me. I just don't want to talk modern subjects as much as can be avoided. Normally, I feel at certain events, such as W'64, 'firper' is very fun. (We debated the Lincoln/McClellan presidential election and got very heated at one point while there!) But for "Piney", I think since I'm a rankholder and we'll be on the move quite frequently and will definitely be tired, then it could get somewhat cumbersome to 'try to do firper' for me 24/7. There, I'll simply indulge in 'normal subjects'- stuff that is not specific to any particular era (weather, care of soldiers, gear, rations, enemy situation, taskings etc.).

                      So, to recap...

                      Perhaps firper isn't held to because of...

                      1) Tiredness of troops after awhile at physically-heavy events...
                      2) Guys like and feel comfortable with the physical/macho, not
                      the 'acting' side of the hobby.
                      3) If one cannot do it right, then one shouldn't do it at all...
                      4) It looks hokey and is uncomfortable to some.

                      Okay... now that's off my chest... Brian- keep our home in Myrtle Beach safe for me until I return at a future date... LOL

                      All the best- Johnny Lloyd:wink_smil
                      Last edited by Johnny Lloyd; 02-04-2009, 11:15 PM.
                      Johnny Lloyd
                      John "Johnny" Lloyd
                      Moderator
                      Think before you post... Rules on this forum here
                      SCAR
                      Known to associate with the following fine groups: WIG/AG/CR

                      "Without history, there can be no research standards.
                      Without research standards, there can be no authenticity.
                      Without the attempt at authenticity, all is just a fantasy.
                      Fantasy is not history nor heritage, because it never really existed." -Me


                      Proud descendant of...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: The Two-Legged Stool???

                        So far everyone has made an interesting point. But let me offer a different take on things. Without intimate knowledge on the men next to you, it is hard to accomplish 'firper.' Allow me to explain. For the most part, we are thrown in with companies at events all over the country, with different groups. Some faces you may recognize, some you won't. Some people will know you, some will just know your face, but you won't know everyone. So how does one go from "Hello, my name is _____," to talking about "their" home town? You can't. Because you don't know this man and it is hard to act as is you have been living and interacting with people for extended periods of time, when you have to ask the man next to you in line what is name is every time you stack weapons.

                        One can argue, my mess does this, and our group does that. But unless you are 25 people who are always together at events and even in real life, you are never going to know everyone in the company. That I think is one of the biggest drawbacks to 'firper' and why it makes is so difficult to do.

                        Now given that, there are some exceptions. I'll use 'W64' since I was there and it was brought up. What it had that many other events don't, is that it was a four day event and the amount of pre-event info that KO'B, Scott Schotz and the rest of the committee put out was amazing. When you are given a packet that contains everyone who is at the event, with their actual name and their 19th c. name and short bio it makes it easier to learn who people are. The first day at this event, people had their "feelers" out. Just getting a feeling for how other people acted, reacted, talked, laughed, who they hug out with, what hut they lived in, calling each other by their 19th c. name, how the officers acted and how the NCO's led. In a normal event, this is "Saturday" but at 'W64' it was day 1. Not to mention guard duty. We had a 24 hour shift in the guard house with 3 reliefs, you get to know people then. I think that is where I learned the Johnny Lloyd has diarrhea of the mouth:wink_smil Now fast forward to the last day of the event, we had a boxing match, a good dinner, White Star Saloon, and both companies were interacting on a personal level. We were acting as a unit, but this came at the end of a four day event, and an event that had college level research dumped on you about New Fane, New York and the surrounding towns.

                        To make a long story short, unless you plan on only talking to your 4 mates the whole weekend, give everyone else a little bit of wiggle room. That being said, there is no need for extreme modern topics, and frankly no excuse. Because unless it is done on an event wide basis, like ‘W64' then do not expect free flowing, constant and consistent ‘firper.’

                        And yes Pete....as one people that ran Glendale, the talk drove me nuts too, but there is only so much you can do.

                        Cheers,
                        Joseph Caridi
                        Washington's Guard/Potomac Legion

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: The Two-Legged Stool???

                          Suppose this was a question like, "Why does everybody bring coolers to events instead of eating period food?" Or, "Why don't we actually march around, instead of just wandering back to camp after the battle?" There'd be a chorus of answers, "Still going to the wrong events?" "Get to better events where that's already happening, and don't bother trying to change those people because it'll never work."

                          Well, that's my reaction here, too. Trying to get campaigners to improve in first person is like trying to get mainstreamers to go on campaign. Some will reminisce about the few times they did it and liked it, but go right back to their normal way at the first chance, some will have all kinds of excuses why it'll never work, some will become hostile, some will say it doesn't matter, some will promise to do it and then weasel out, and so forth.

                          Much easier just to pick events or carpe eventums where it's already happening, and not worry about the nay-sayers. I was at both Westville and W64, and I'd say they were good for first person, as long as you were careful to walk away or not approach when necessary, picked who you interacted with the most, and refused to get drawn into modern conversations. By carefully doing just the opposite, I suspect one could probably have managed to get through both events talking about modern things most of the time. But the difference was, finding people in the period at any given moment wasn't hopeless, like it is at some events.

                          So if it's what you want to get out of reenacting, I'd say to ignore the people who say it can't be done and who can explain exactly why it can't be done, and attend events with people who are already doing it. Who are they? Well, unfortunately, I can't help you among the military. It's taken me years to find the right civilian people/events, but if you're wanting civilian events like that, just send me an email. There's still barely time to get into our group at Piney Woods. If you're wanting military, I wish I could help, but hopefully you can find the right niche there too.

                          Hank Trent
                          hanktrent@voyager.net
                          Hank Trent

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: The Two-Legged Stool???

                            I think that is where I learned the Johnny Lloyd has diarrhea of the mouth...

                            Joe... You say that like it's a bad thing... :p

                            Bettern' having diarrhea of the nether regions, I figger... :D

                            I agree with what you said... add it to that I said above. We certainly do have a hard time doing firper also due to the fact we haven't spent 24/7 with one-another and don't know each other as well as those that fought the real war.

                            W'64 was excellent in preparation in this respect. But other events are good for what they are also. Sometimes one is in for the heavy firper at events, sometimes one is in for the heavier physical aspect or even a balance of said aspects overall... depends on what you want and all here is good.

                            Also Hank does have a good point: 'Ain't no use in trying to change the culture- better to pursue fellowship with groups that are like-minded than to address the subculture as-a-whole'.


                            All the best- Johnny Lloyd:wink_smil
                            Johnny Lloyd
                            John "Johnny" Lloyd
                            Moderator
                            Think before you post... Rules on this forum here
                            SCAR
                            Known to associate with the following fine groups: WIG/AG/CR

                            "Without history, there can be no research standards.
                            Without research standards, there can be no authenticity.
                            Without the attempt at authenticity, all is just a fantasy.
                            Fantasy is not history nor heritage, because it never really existed." -Me


                            Proud descendant of...

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: The Two-Legged Stool???

                              I've got to say I agree with Pat's posts so far. I've attended immersion events and while not all people who use 1st person are bad much of it seems to be as Pat said...bad actting. First person, among other factors, killed Rich Mountain for me. First person for me is more doing and not saying. Like Pat, when I'm busy cooking, digging, or performing some other duty I don't have much time to hold conversations about things going on in the modern world. I will continue to attend immersion events regardless of first person because the activites and the scenarios are of better quality than many of the mainstream events

                              just my .02
                              Pards,

                              Jared Byrnes

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