End of War Purchasing of Weapons and Equip.

[NYCivilWar]

Hello All,

I was skimming through Francis A. Lord's 1960 They Fought For the Union chapter on Weapons and Munitions. In this chapter, and for those of you that might have this book pg. 166, there is a list of published in Circular No. 13, 1865 Entitled: Number and Description of Arms Retained by Enlisted Men Under General Order No. 101. The list breaks down the weapons by Muskets, Rifles, Swords, Sabres, Carbines, and Revolvers.

My question(s): Is this order listing the number or weapons taken home at the conclusion of the war?

I overheard a dealer at a Civil War show a few years back state that in the later years of the war enlisted men were allowed to purchase their weapons and equipment when they mustered out. Is there any validity in this statement?

If this "General Order No. 101" is not the order that allowed for the purchase of weapons, when was such an order given? For the number of items to have shown up in attics and basements over the years, and I'm not talking about Bannerman's surplus stuff, there must have been an option for purchase at mustering out. And I also realize there was private purchase weapons and equipment that obviously would have been taken home, I'm more interested in issued gear taken home at the end of service.

If anyone can shed some light on this, please do.

[Jimmayo]

Re: End of War Purchasing of Weapons and Equip.

I overheard a dealer at a Civil War show a few years back state that in the later years of the war enlisted men were allowed to purchase their weapons and equipment when they mustered out. Is there any validity in this statement?

The statement is partially true. I have not heard of this happening in the later years of the war but after the war was over and when the men were mustered out they were able to buy their arms and accroutements. The amount of 12 dollars sticks in my mind for some reason. I have a record of a soldier who did this somewhere in my files. Now trying to determine what is a wartime take home or a Bannerman purchase after the war is almost impossible unless you have the NA records saying that a specific soldier took home his weapon or some kind of written history.

[NYCivilWar]

Re: End of War Purchasing of Weapons and Equip.

"The statement is partially true. I have not heard of this happening in the later years of the war but after the war was over and when the men were mustered out they were able to buy their arms and accroutements. "

Thanks for the reply Jim. So, at any point during the war--be it 1861 or 1865-- upon mustering out a soldier could purchase his weapon? Am I following you correctly? Or was the option to buy only provided to those troops who were mustered out in 1865?

[JohnTaylorCW]

Re: End of War Purchasing of Weapons and Equip.

Hope this is helpful, it's the National Archives copy of Leroy Curtis' Muster-out roll record. Note that He retains his Sharp's Carbine for $8.00

Can't help you on the earlier muster-outs, but from the date of the General Order 101 ( below ) I would speculate that earlier muster-outs did not retain their arms.

The text of General Order 101 (from eHistory)

(Copy to chief mustering officers.)

GENERAL ORDERS,
WAR DEPT., ADJT. GENERAL'S OFFICE, Numbers 101.
Washington, May 30, 1865.

RETENTION OF ARMS BY SOLDIERS ON BEING HONORABLY DISCHARGED FROM SERVICE.

Upon an Honorable muster out and discharge from the service of the United States, all volunteer soldiers desiring to do so are hereby authorized to retain their arms and accouterments on paying therefor their value to the Ordnance Department.

The payments will be made, under the regulations of the Ordnance Department, to the officer or representative thereof at the rendezvous in the State to which the troops are ordered for payment and final discharge.

By order of the Secretary of War:

E. D. TOWNSEND,

Assistant Adjutant-General.

[NYCivilWar]

Re: End of War Purchasing of Weapons and Equip.

John,

Thanks for posting G.O. No. 101. I briefly searched online, but nothing turned up. If definitely appears as though men mustering out in 1865 had the option. I'm wondering if this only happened due to the fact that the war was over, and that someone mustering out in 1864 would not have had the option due to the continuance of the war.

Another question then: If a regiment was mustered out in 1864 and turned in their weapons and equipment, were these itmes re-issued to other soldiers? Say a soldier in the field needed to draw another cartridge box, would the box be brand new, or could he get a used box?

[Matt Woodburn]

Re: End of War Purchasing of Weapons and Equip.

Kyle,

You have good info above, and I'll add that my great, great grandfather, George Lynch, who was in the 12th Ohio Cavalry, purchased his sword and Spencer carbine upon mustering out in 1865. As stated above, soldiers did turn in their weapons prior to the end of the war. The government did need the weapons to continue the war effort. I'm unable to give an example of a soldier that purchased something issued to him prior to the wars end, so won't comment either way. Your question about whether a soldier got new or used is, yes. Both could happen. Companies continued to manufacture everything to the wars end. Purchase records of new equipment exist to the end of the war. As far as used being re-issued, I'll give this example. I collect Civil War period weapons and have observed the following upon a number of Springfiled rifled muskets. A cartouche is usually found on the wood opposite of the lock. This was an inspectors mark to say the weapon was fit for service. Some rifles have more than one cartouche and the reason is it was sent back to an armory to be worked on and made fit for service once again. Upon being refurbished, it was inspected again and if passed, restamped with another cartouche of that inspector. As you may have already guessed, this "used" weapon was issued to a soldier. This happened with weapons and accoutrements. And I had a conversation with a friend of mine who still does this today in the military. He sees that the equipment from a unit that recently returned from Iraq gets sorted, and anything that needs repair, refurb, etc. gets sent for those repairs before being redeployed with the unit again. Can you imagine what it would cost us taxpayers if we only sent new items out evertime? Hope this helps.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: End of War Purchasing of Weapons and Equip.

Hallo!

Yes, think of the government having to pay say $20 for a gun to replace one it just sold to a departing veteran for $12. ;) :)

One example of guns going to other units can be found in Berdan's Sharpshooters. The original 1862 order for (Berdan specs) Sharps NM1859 Rifles was for 2,000 with a "target" (no pun) of getting 1,000 out as quickly as possible.
Casualties were heavy, and of the roughly 1700 or so original enlistees in 1861, only 723 were present in May of 1863.
As a result, of the 2,000 (Berdan spec) NM1859's made and not issued to the 1st or 2nd USSS, the Ordnance Department reissued them to other units.
Plus, used rifles belonging to those Berdans WIA, KIA, or discharged for med reasons, etc. In fact this angered Hiram Berdan and while convalescing in Washington DC, he fought to get them back- getting 300 back from a Michigan regiment and 197 that had gone to Fort Monroe. But many he was not able to get back, such as those given to the Pennsyvalnia "Bucktails" (13th PA Reserves of the 42nd PA Volunteer Infantry) which they used for about two years before getting Spencer Rifles.

And, thanks to Ordnance Department Circular No. 13, a departing Berdan whose enlistment had expired in 1864 or 1865 could pay a flat $6.00 fee (getting what had originally cost $45 for the rifle, bayonet, scabbard, cone wrench, and screwdriver) and take his Sharps home. Those not bought, were turned in, cleaned, and placed in storage at several arsenals to be eventually sold off as unwanted surplus for a few bucks each at auction.

Curt

[NYCivilWar]

Re: End of War Purchasing of Weapons and Equip.

Matt and Curt, thanks for the great examples!

I guess really what I am getting at, is... was there a simliar General Order in other years similar to G.O. No. 101 for 1865?

If you look in Don Troiani's "Soldiers in America 1754-1865" on pg. 225 it shows a Gutta Percha knapsack, issued blanket and personal effects of Edgar S. Yergason Co. A 22nd CT. Vols. A quick serach online, states that the 22nd mustered out in July 1863. The text in Troiani's book makes it sound like the knapsack and its contents were brought home from the war and rediscovered 125 years later still packed. I understand the personal effects being brought home, but the issued knapsack and blanket should have been turned in, but were not. So either Yergason took them when he wasn't supposed to, or (Getting to my point) there must have been a purchase option earlier than 1865.

I guess this entire thread has no bearing on us as living historians, but I am just interested in the history of the objects-- that we study today to make reproductions-- from their field use to collections/museums today.

[Jimmayo]

Re: End of War Purchasing of Weapons and Equip.

Some items were not required for turn in at the big muster out of the army. I suspect that knapsacks and blankets may have been included as such items. I have never seen a record of a soldier having to pay for a lost blanket. I have seen one for a belt plate. Cost the guy .09 cent or thereabouts.

[Matt Woodburn]

Re: End of War Purchasing of Weapons and Equip.

Kyle,

While I don't have a specific instance to cite right now, many of the volunteer troops were outfitted by the states from which they came. Not the Federal government. Many states paid for what their troops were equipped with. So, it is reasonable to expect not all state troops were under the same requirements. One state may allow purchase of equipment that it deemed obsolete, while another state might not have allowed that. It would be interesting to see research on that subject.

[NYCivilWar]

Re: End of War Purchasing of Weapons and Equip.

Matt,

I completely didn't even think of this when I first posted.

[John of the Skulkers Mess]

Re: End of War Purchasing of Weapons and Equip.

The diary of George Carrington (11th Ill. Inf.) mentions:

July 29, 1865 - 'While in camp [of discharge] the capt had several muskets and equipments more than he wanted to account for; so I took a fine musket and cat'ridge box. The old mess chest fell to my share, so I packed it with such things as I wanted to take home with me, and sent by express a sabre and the musket, a (Colts pattern of '63) [which] with the chest all came safely home.'

He ended the war as an officer. The manuscript is at the Chicago Historical Society.

[J. Donaldson]

Re: End of War Purchasing of Weapons and Equip.

In the Charles Thomas Ackley collection, 7th Iowa Infantry, Special Collections Department, University of Iowa Libraries, there is a muster out account for final pay and allowances which notes that Ackley "retained 1 SR musket and acctmts complete" for a fee of six dollars.

[stri volunteer]

After the Civil War, the greatest source of relics and souvenirs still in existence came from returning war veterans. Two General Orders issued at the close of hostilities – Number 101 date May 30, 1865 and Number 114 dated June 15, 1865 stated that all Federal soldiers who wished to retain the arms and accoutrements could do so by having the value deducted from their pay. The order read as follows:

Retention of Arms
[General Order 101]
War Department, Adjutant Generals Department
Washington, DC May 30, 1865
“Upon an honorable muster out and discharge from the service of the United States, all volunteer soldiers desiring to do so are hereby authorized to retain their arms and accoutrements on paying therefore for their value to the Ordnance Department.”

E.D. Thompson, Asst Adjutant General

The prices determined by the Ordnance Department were $6 for muskets of any type, with accoutrements, $8 for most types of carbines and revolvers, and $3 for sabers and swords. The estimated one million Federals mustered out of service were allowed to retain, without charge, their canteens, haversacks, and knapsacks.

Obviously, paroled Confederates did not have the same option to retain their infantry arms upon being given their paroles. They were however, permitted to retain a horse or mule if they had one and “return to their one mule farms”. Cavalry officers were permitted to retain their side arms in most cases. What became of all the surrendered Confederate arms after the Civil War? Following the cessation of hostilities, Washington found itself with a large supply of excess military equipment, arms, and ammunition. For example, after Appomattox, the Federal Government possessed close to 1.2 million rifles and rifle-muskets beyond what soldiers in the field were issued. In the last year of the war alone, the Ordnance Department produced close to 800,000 sets of accoutrements. Moreover, the Federal armies seized about 1.3 million additional small arms from Confederates. These gigantic caches we largely eliminated through the use of public auctions. The Federal Government exercised its authority to sell war surplus based on two Congressional Acts – passed in 1825 and 1868, respectively -- which allowed the Government to sell arms so long as they were officially deemed “damaged,” “unsuitable,” and/or “unserviceable.” It reads as follows:

“Congress having by the Act of 1868, as directed by the Secretary of War, to dispose of these arms and stores…in execution of the lawful purpose of the Government to sell off its excess arms and stores.”

The exact meaning of such terms, however, was often left to the discretion of individual Government inspectors. Eager to dispose of the largely obsolete and unnecessary inventory vast quantities of arms and equipment were put up for sale that may have needed only minor repairs. Auctions generally took place at Government arsenals. In the case of serviceable imported arms, like the P-53 Enfield, the best specimens were sold back into the English gun trade and converted to the Snider breech loading system. Much of the “war surplus” sold by the government was eventually acquired by large, commercial retail firms: Schuyler, Hartley, and Graham and the White Brothers (both in New York) and Philadelphia W. Stokes Kirk (Philadelphia). There were other companies that bought wholesale and re-sold military items, such as the Montgomery Ward & Company. Truly vast quantities of surplus were made available: In government auctions held in 1869-1870 alone, 200,000 US model rifle-muskets, 20,000 Spencer carbines, 70,000 infantry accoutrement sets, 40,000 cavalry sabers, and 40,000 Enfields were put up for bid. The prices on such items, even when inflation is considered, borders on the ludicrous: The Remington Company, for example, bought 50,000 of the US contract 1861s for $5 each. It should be noted that these same 1861s were recently purchased by the Government from Remington and other contractors for $16 to $20 each. Henry repeaters went for $12-15, Spencer carbines went for $5-7, and McClellan saddles went for as little as $2.50. Frequently, these companies would re-sell the items to foreign governments. Of all the surplus arms dealers following the Civil War, perhaps no other was as famous as Francis Bannerman. Even today, collectors who peruse one of Bannerman’s legendary catalogs are overwhelmed by the enormous quantity and scope of antique military arms and equipment offered for sale. Bannerman’s was one of the largest purchasers of Civil War “surplus.” Originally founded by Francis Bannerman VI in 1865, Bannerman’s along with such other dealers as Robert Abel (also of New York), offered a large array of original firearms, swords, and accoutrements. Bannerman was one of the first to see the waste in the government program, and the opportunity for profit from it.