Coins and firearm question

[Gary of CA]

What's the diamter of a Civil War era dime?

I read in the Bucktail regimental history (Thompson and Rauch) that some soldiers found that placing three dimes into the chamber reduced the felt recoil. Wouldn't stacking three dimes in the breech block the passage of the percussion cap's flame?

[Virginia Mescher]

Re: Coins and firearm question

Gary,

Don't you mean the thickness? I don't have any period dimes handy but my recollection is they are very thin like today's. Maybe barely more than 1 mm each. One way to find out whether they block the touchole is to drop three dimes down the barrel, tamp them down so they are flat, take off the tube, and run a wire into the chamber through the touchhole.

IN NO WAY AM I RECOMMENDING THEY BE LEFT IN THE BARREL DUE TO THE RISK THEY COULD BECOME PROJECTILES. THE CHECK IS ONLY FOR HISTORIC CONTEXT. AND MAKE SURE BEFORE YOU PUT THEM IN THE BARREL THAT THEY SLIDE EASILY AND WILL ALL COME OUT EASILY.

Michael Mescher

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Coins and firearm question

Hallo!

The dimes would have had to have their centers punched or drilled out to fit over the flash cone in the recessed area of the Sharps' breech block.

Oddly enough, in the 1980's, some of us N-SSA actually did a similar thing but with one coin in the breech block of repro Sharps (but I do not recall the reason... maybe it was for easy cleaning of that area??)

It is an interesting reference, and more than likely (if true) a fad or buzz as it would not work.

The recoil of the projectile pushes back against the chamber, floating gas check plate, and breech block of a Sharps ( a different system that the modern non-gas check plate molded into the breech block and a sleeved tube in the chamber of the Italian reproductions). Having a coin or coins in the back of the vent channel cone recess does not reduce actual recoil or the shooter's perception of recoil.

Interesting...

Curt
Sharps Rifle and Carbine Shooter Mess

[Gary of CA]

Re: Coins and firearm question

Hi,

Here's some clarification. The guns are not Sharps rifles. When some Bucktails put dimes into their muskets, it was the older Harper's Ferry M1842 musket alterted to percussion and not the Sharps rifle that they carried later. It's on page 43 of Thompson and Rauch's book, History of the Bucktails. I quote:

About to commence hostilities, they regretted intensely the inferiority of the weapons which they now received... In exchange for guns, the value of which had been tested in their native forests, they now carried old-fashioned Harper's Ferry Muskets. These muzzle loading flint locks had been coverted to percussion ones; but the bore being deeper than the tube, or nipple, formed quite a chamber behind it. The resultant kick knocked half the men off their feet the first time they fired them. Some genius discovered the simple remedy. Taking two or three silver dimes, he rammed them down, effectually filling the chamber and eliminating 'back action.'

So, does the 1842 Musket have a deeper chamber and can it take three dimes?

[rogue]

Re: Coins and firearm question

Sounds like model 1816 muskets rather than 1842's.
S.Sullivan

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Coins and firearm question

Hallo!

Aha, that's a Horse of a Different Color.

Hey, buddy, can you spare a dime?

I had a CW dime around here somewhere, but I cannot find it. I tried finding a diameter reference on line with no success. Hopefully another lad can chime in.

Having fired .69 EB "Minies," I can sympathize with CW soldiers finding them less than a joy to shoot. Even a .69 round ball is noticeably different than a .58.

In theory, yes a stack of disks in the form of dimes (if large enough in the .69 bore) could be wedged into a musket breech ahead of the face of the breech plug (anything not solidly tight runs the risk of moving forward to become a projectile although the "initial" effect is to push the coins backwards into the breech plug face).
I would have to dismount an M1822 alteration or M1842 to be able to see and measure the distance from the breech plug face and where the flash channel enters the barrel in front of the plug. And then see with the thickness of three dimes (coins) would block where the vent enters the bore. (Mentally, in my mind's eye, the vent enters a rough questimate about 3/4 of an inch from the end of the barrel which is about a rough questimate of the length of a breech plug "thread." So, without looking, I am having a hard time mentally seeing three coins not blocking the flash channel.)

However, I cannot "see" where having three coins in the breech would effect a decrease in "kick." Whether the face of the breech plug or the face of the breech plus the width of three coins, the powder charge still sits behind the projectile. Moving the projectile a three dimes' width forward would not change the recoil.

Still an interesting reference...

Curt

[Citizen_Soldier]

Re: Coins and firearm question

Greetings,
There is another reference to this practice in Ware's book on the 1st Iowa Infantry.

Darrek Orwig

[Gary of CA]

Re: Coins and firearm question

On the issue of decreasing the kick with dimes, look at the Ruger Ranch rifle. The Ruger Ranch was developed after a lot of Mini-14s were returned to the factory with complaints that the scopes including Leupolds were breaking. Since the Mini-14 was not designed at the factory to be scoped, all the scope mounts for it were after-market products. Alterted to the problem, Ruger engineers worked to adapt the Mini-14 to take a scope. Thus, the Ranch rifle has a solid steel recoil buffer for the slide (called the op-rod on the M-1 Carbine, M-1 Garand and the M-14 rifle). It looks like a tall metal ring and is sufficient to reduce the recoil from damaging any optical device mounted on it (along with the ejector modified to side ejection so there's no pounding on the scope base that would transfer to the scope like it would on a Mini-14).

Personally, if I had an 1842 replica and some coins of the same size, I'd be willing to try it. That would be the real test.

[minieball]

Re: Coins and firearm question

Seated Liberty Dimes:
Date of authorization: April 2, 1792
Dates of issue: 1837-1891
Designers: (1837-1840) Obverse: Thomas Sully-Christian Gobrecht
Reverse: Christian Gobrecht
(1840-1860) Obverse: John Hughes-Gobrecht-Sully
Reverse: Christian Gobrecht
(1860-1891) Obverse: James B. Longacre-Hughes-Gobrecht-Sully
Reverse: James B. Longacre
Engravers: (1837-1840): Christian Gobrecht
(1840-1860): Christian Gobrecht
(1860-1891): James B. Longacre

Diameter: 17.90 mm/0.71 inch
Weight: (1837-1853): 2.67 grams/0.09 ounce
(1853-1873): 2.49 grams/0.08 ounce
Metallic content: 90% silver, 10% copper
Weight of pure silver: (1837-1853): 2.41 grams/0.08 ounce
(1853-1873): 2.24 grams/0.07 ounce
Edge: Reeded
Mint mark: Reverse within or below wreath

[Secesh]

Re: Coins and firearm question

Putting dimes down a barrel seems like an accident or fatality waiting to happen....a little sage advice from someone who's been on the losing end of a gun barrel....

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Coins and firearm question

Hallo!

"Diameter: 17.90 mm/0.71 inch"

.71 in a .69 bore

So, yes... a CW dime could be "wedged" into the bore of an M1822 or
M1842.

In the modern world, as I understand gas operated, blow back, designed semi and full auto weaponry those "designs" feature moving parts and even piston-like movement to take the energy of recoil and transfer/absorb it. IMHO, I do not see non-moving dimes as having an effect on recoil.

A Civil War version can be seen in the Smith Carbine, which has a "recoil shield" between the receiver and the butt stock. Or more generally, it is not unusual to find CW era guns with cracks or split-offs ( barrel removal damage excluded) behind the tang due to recoil even though the barrel is held by a tang screw and barrel bands. (Seemingly a curse on Hall's).

As shared, the other factor is safety. A Civil War soldier just happening to fire three dimes at the enemy is not the same as a reenactor firing dimes at other reenactors.

Curt

[Gary of CA]

Re: Coins and firearm question

Thank you minieball for providing the "specs" for the period dimes.

Thank you Comrade Curt for telling me that they would fit.

BTW, I'm not advocating shooting dimes out of the barrel. The dimes were supposed to be beneath the powder charge and in direct contact with the breech. So, from breech to muzzle, it would be dime, dime, dime, powder, ball.

[Gary of CA]

Re: Coins and firearm question

BTW, the buffer ring on the Ruger Ranch doesn't move much either. It floats and takes up the initial shock of the slide. That's all it needs to do. As to the three dimes, who knows?

[Uncle Pig]

Re: Coins and firearm question

Years ago I remember reading about troops having to put a dime in bottom of their barrel because the barrel had a liner in it that was short about the thickness of a dime. Without the dime the gun had violent recoil. I do not remember where I read this but it has stuck with me ever since.