Civilian Coats in Military Impressions

[J_V]

One thing I think is under-represented overall is the usage of civilian coats within Confederate impressions. Respecting the principle of plain/everyday/common, and balancing that with specific unit images and scenarios, I think that overall, more attention could be paid to the reproduction of authentic laborer grade civilian sacks, especially for Western and Trans-Mississippi impressions.

I am not advocating the "tramp with a rifle" myth. I simply believe from looking at images (particularly of AOT captives), that this particular garment is a little too rare on the whole.

Furthermore, I think a reproduction of a specific coat would be a great addition to the hobby, with the understanding that it was more prevalent in certain times and places. There is at least one in EOG under the "Trans-Mississippi Garb" pages that might make for a nice run.

What do others think?

[Secesh]

Re: Civilian Coats in Military Impressions

The coat you mention in EOG, which was worn by Pvt. Marchbanks, was not a mass produced garment; it was made for him by his wife.

[Ian McWherter]

Re: Civilian Coats in Military Impressions

One thing I think is under-represented overall is the usage of civilian coats within Confederate impressions. Respecting the principle of plain/everyday/common, and balancing that with specific unit images and scenarios, I think that overall, more attention could be paid to the reproduction of authentic laborer grade civilian sacks, especially for Western and Trans-Mississippi impressions.

I am not advocating the "tramp with a rifle" myth. I simply believe from looking at images (particularly of AOT captives), that this particular garment is a little too rare on the whole.

Furthermore, I think a reproduction of a specific coat would be a great addition to the hobby, with the understanding that it was more prevalent in certain times and places. There is at least one in EOG under the "Trans-Mississippi Garb" pages that might make for a nice run.

What do others think?

I agree more civilian clothing should be represented in the ranks of Confederate living historians. The problem is the definition of "plain/everyday/common" and "laborer grade" varies greatly from one person to another and most base their civilian reproduction clothing and impressions on pure perception and outright speculation alone. I think copying specific original articles of civilian clothing documented to having been used by a Confederate soldier from a specific region would be best. That way nothing is left to speculation about what constitutes a "common" or "Laborer grade" garment that would have been used by a Confederate soldier.

Having spent many years collecting and examining original civilian men's clothing I can tell you it's a mine field when trying to explain the reality of what original civilian men's clothing is like to people who have entrenched perceptions of how "rural", "poor" or "working class" people dressed.

[Lucky]

Re: Civilian Coats in Military Impressions

Jonathan,

I agree more civilian clothing (sack coats and frocks) in the western/trans miss (where applicable) would be nice, but I don't think everyone should run out and get a Marchbanks' coat made and call it done.

Seems we as a hobby have seen this type of thing happen before, with "Columbus Depot" jackets sorta being the end-all be-all western jacket, when that wasn't the case.

I understand you were simply referring to that coat as an example of such. There are several vendors who produce some really sharp civilian clothing, and they also could probably point you in the direction of several other patterns/examples civilian sack coats & laborer coats. Corner Clothiers and Joe Blunt come to mind.

Tom,

It doesn't matter whether his wife made it, or his granny, or the tailor from his home town, its the pattern and construction details/materials/time and place of use that is important. Not an attack on you, just sayin'.

[J_V]

Re: Civilian Coats in Military Impressions

To all who responded thus far, thank you. I was beginning to think it was just me. Very few vendors seem willing to take this on. It might be something to do with a lack of demand, but I suspect that the complexities Ian pointed out might have something to do with the scarcity as well.

Thanks for the feedback.

[Parault]

Re: Civilian Coats in Military Impressions

I have a civilian 4 button sack coat that I wear quite regularly in the my area of the Trans-Mississippi events. I do not know the pattern ,however, my wife did make it so it fits the impression.

[Tom Dodson]

Re: Civilian Coats in Military Impressions

I don't understand why ANY civilian coat that is of a pattern documented to the period made with ANY period correct material would not work. Civilian coats would or should not have the same restrictions applied to them as any certain pattern Columbus Depot or RD Depot jacket would. With the noted guidelines I think any civilian pattern or type coat/jacket should work equally well.
Just my 2 cents.
Tom Dodson

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Civilian Coats in Military Impressions

You may want to consider this thread regarding civilian coats in CS ranks:

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17182

[guad42]

Re: Civilian Coats in Military Impressions

Folks,

One of my prized possessions is my "U.G.C." (Ugly Green Coat), a wonderful green civilian sack coat that I've worn to several events. I've had this pea green garment for years, a hand-me down from my father. I use it mostly for Trans-Miss events, and various other things. This came from a fellow named Garrett Roberts in Northern Arizona (fmr proprietor of Kicking Mule Outfitters) who was a fellow "Buckaroo" on Tombstone in '93. An extra tried to steal this jacket one night and it was taken back right quick. Anyways, it's a great understated coat and very authentic.

-Sam Dolan

[western reb]

Re: Civilian Coats in Military Impressions

One of my prized possessions is my "U.G.C." (Ugly Green Coat
-Sam Dolan

I do remember that horribly hideous coat of yours Sam.....but yet it makes for a fine impression. Hope to see you in the ranks this season.

[Tom Dodson]

Re: Civilian Coats in Military Impressions

Mr. Wickett,
I read the thread you suggested and I found nothing that invalidated my post. There was much talk about depot jackets but I did not think that was the subject. It seemed to me to just confirm that when it comes to civilian jackets/coats the field is pretty much wide open. As long as period patterns, material and construction are adhered to, I don't see a problem.
Tom Dodson

[Ian McWherter]

Re: Civilian Coats in Military Impressions

Mr. Wickett,
I read the thread you suggested and I found nothing that invalidated my post. There was much talk about depot jackets but I did not think that was the subject. It seemed to me to just confirm that when it comes to civilian jackets/coats the field is pretty much wide open. As long as period patterns, material and construction are adhered to, I don't see a problem.
Tom Dodson

Problem is where are all the "authentic" civilian Civil War era men's coat patterns? Homespun has a sack coat pattern available but it's poorly drawn and doesn't follow the pattern lines of original sack coat drafts I have. What's more, what original was copied for the instructions of the pattern? The assembly, especially the machine pad-stitching of the under collar resembles modern men's suits. Where are there any good civilian frock coat patterns commercially available? There's a good reason why, the level of skill that goes into drafting these patterns is considerable. And what about the myriad of other original men's coat styles available at that time, who's making them or the patterns and are all of them appropriate to wear as a Confederate soldier in the field?

As with any part of any impression research is crucial. Examining original photographs is helpful, you can see many different civilian coat styles being worn by Confederate soldiers. But what do photographs really tell you about the fabric that the coat is made from or any of the construction details? There are many details you can infer from a photograph, but you really need an original in your hand to truly know what the fabric is like and how the thing was put together. Even if you have an intact original, unless you want to tear out the lining of the original and tear apart the collar and padding, how are you going to know how those internal elements are constructed? I own 22 original men's frock coats and tailcoats dating 1840-1870 and numerous other original men's clothing items, and I can tell you being able to examine these garments whenever it suits my fancy is invaluable. I've collected many original men's garments that are in poor condition making them worthless to any collector but valuable to me so I can see inside and see what kinds of fabrics are used in the internal areas and how they're put together.

Copying specific original garments cuts out much of the speculation, you can say your garment was copied from X original in X collection and that it was worn by a real soldier at some point during the war, rather than speculating what civilian coat would be appropriate and getting into the tangled web of "what class am I from", "what occupation am I" and speculating over and over on nearly every part of your impression. If you can copy a set of original civilian clothing with known provenance, then you can see exactly who wore the garment and what background they came from.

Vendors avoid certain civilian clothing items for a reason, many are a money pit. You'll invest far more in labor and materials then you'll ever get out of constructing a garment such as a civilian frock coat. Trust me, I know what goes into making them and I know of only two individuals in the country that do a half way decent job of reproducing them and they're not "approved vendors."

[Secesh]

Re: Civilian Coats in Military Impressions

Yes Lucky, I am aware of that. However, for everyone to go out and buy a coat made exactly like Marchbanks' coat would not be very correct, in my opinion. There are probably little details by his wife's hand that are pertinent to that particular coat, and would not be seen in a garment that was being produced in multiples...

[Lucky]

Re: Civilian Coats in Military Impressions

Secesh,

Many patterns of civilian garments exist that would suitable for our time period.

[Tom Dodson]

Re: Civilian Coats in Military Impressions

My point is that there would probably have been a huge variation in civilian coats/jackets just as there would have been variation is sewing styles and skills. I would suggest it is not only possible but likely that many coats could have been made by someone's wife, girl friend or hometown tailor without the use of a pattern.
Tom Dodson