Personality vs. Purpose: Event Criteria

[boreguard]

Re: Personality vs. Purpose: Event Criteria

I know maybe we could form a union, pay dues, and campaign so many hours a year in order to get our union book stamped. Otherwise we'd have the so called campaigners who are at "such and such" C/P/H/ event say something like "wail I didn't see this fellow or that fellow this weekend, he's not living up to the standards I believe should be the gospel." Never mind this "keeper of the gate" hadn't been to much of anything in recent months or years, but speaks as the end all be all.

Maybe we elect a business agent (event agent)to represent the various regions of the hobby, let's call them locals i.e. Local Middle Tennessee, Local Georgia, Local Louisiana, you get the picture. Then the agent can verify an event and catagorize it in EBUFU or Adjunct, accept and coordinate registerations, and then stamp the union book of the partcipants who make the event from start to finish.

Then from there the Brotherhood of Authentic Civil War Reenactors (B.A.C.W.R.) could establish journeyman reenactors and apprentice reenactors in order to give the hobby a pecking order.

Sound ridiculous ? Maybe, but no more so than the points Greg made as opposed to some of the responses. There are good arguments in each response, but I don't think none of 'em are right in and of themselves, although I'm sure the intentions were good. At some point in time you, me, all of us have to work the hobby into real life situations, and at times the company of guys you plan to spend a weekend with does make a difference especially if you value your time. There's some folks I'm sure I'll never like, nor voluntarily join ranks with, no matter how authentic they or the event may be. They're just to much to stomach for two days, much less more. But, where will we go and everyone "just get along" but Heaven ?

To put my two cents worth in I believe that two days, nay even four, doesn't make one a campaigner, no more than missing an event should disqualify one as such. Every tub has to sit on its own bottom, if your going to judge then be at everything there is, both mainstream and authentic,in order to record attendance for those you plan to sit in judgement of. Otherwise be careful of those you make jabs at because you just might be sticking your fist through your glass roof. Or maybe we form a union !

BTW, just how many events don't have a parking lot somewhere on or near the site ? Just a question that begs asking when reading the comments in this post.
Respectfully,

[btfire]

Re: Personality vs. Purpose: Event Criteria

Maybe I missed where it was said if you do not go to every event you are not a "campaigner." I, for one, cannot make every event. However, I attempt to attend the quality events. I went to Resaca and Olustee this year with a campaigner adjunct. These two events I would not have gone to had the SCAR not been in attendance. Greg brought forth a quality list of criteria to determine if an event is worth "our" time. You and I may disagree on what is worth it, but the criteria is solid. I have been on this forum less than three years, in which time what is "worth" it has changed considerably. Greg, keep that criteria going, there are plenty of people who are already using it on a regular basis. You know I will use it...

Greg, thank you very much for exposing me to all of this.

[boreguard]

Re: Personality vs. Purpose: Event Criteria

Brian I'm more in agreement with the points that Greg makes than not It's the comments that seemingly try and define and or add to every aspect of his missive that go around chasing rabbits. Some points Greg makes are most likely never going to be resolved. It may be that some of them have a solution that's of greater harm than the problem itself. People are people, this isn't a military entity with consequences if one fails to meet the demands of a higher authority. But, it is a volunteer hobby where a whole "butt" load of opinions, as well as ideas, come to surface, some have fans and some don't. At the end of the day we are all on a mission to try and enjoy our efforts, and though discussion is healthy some things are just not going to be changed with more convoluted red tape.

[coastaltrash]

Re: Personality vs. Purpose: Event Criteria

Greg,
I appreciate your comments, but as I am my own worst critic I'll go ahead and say this- when I left Vicksburg Life on the Line that Sunday, I had been in the field since Friday Morning at about 6 am. I had been in Vicksburg since Wednesday night. I could not for the life of me see how anyone could have walked away even 10% satisfied with what happened that weekend. To me, we sat around in a trench line, popping shots off at each other and almost sweating to death. But everyone seemed to have a good time, and had I been able to sit still and enjoy it, I might have to.

Events are what you make of them. I know some jumped all over DRL, but for me personally, it has been a while since I had an event that challenged me that much. Not physically (unless you call shaking a physical activity) but mentally. Feeling the ground literally pull the heat out of my body, trying to stay warm and begging God to let me fall asleep, now that's real. I think the last time I was that cold was at Grenada in 2005.

To me its not about the events, its started to become about the people. I guess I have a luxury of sorts to know most of the organizers of events I go to, so I know what I'm getting into, and in some cases, know what I'm avoiding. As an event organizer, I can say that the registration list does greatly help in getting the forms in, mainly because the gathering of the minds happens so little, that if Buddy A sees buddy B on the list, he may register in order to just go and hang out.

Pat Landrum
Local #77583

[SCTiger]

Re: Personality vs. Purpose: Event Criteria

I don't see how deciding which events to support or which leaders to follow needs a union, but I will ask that the next time someone posts an adjunct over a Ebufu event, that said adjunct should get the full criteria treatment we would expect from a Ebufu. Especially from a Mr. Invisible Campaigner. That AAR's be honest, and that personalities are second to actual event planning and presentation.

In other words, instead of just nodding our heads or looking the other way, put the event on the grill and ask sound questions. Same goes for the leader.

BTW thanks Pat & Brian.

[boreguard]

Re: Personality vs. Purpose: Event Criteria

Speaking of hosting events, it's been my pleasure to be a part of a unit that, until last year, hosted a mainstream event. My unit, the 16th La/12th Conn, were the host of the event for the Camp Moore Confederate Museum & Cemetery. This event is vital to the survival of the site which no longer enjoys any public funding. The efforts for the past 10 years we hosted this event have grossed over $85,000.00 dollars. Was it worth it ? Sure. Did we endure mainstream sights and smells ? Yea, but those sights and smells attended and supported us in our efforts, so at the end of the day would we cut off our nose to spite our face ? No. Think of our time spent similar to that of a march of many miles designed to raise funds for some worthy cause.

We'd have loved to have had greater support from our fellow reenactors from the C/P/H community, but we fully understood their lack of interest and disdain for spending a weekend with mainstreamers, in spite of Camp Moore being a site worth the effort. With the help of Pat Landrum, Jason Thibodaux, Joe Smotherman and son, Tyler Gibson, and a small hand full of some others I'm sure I'm overlooking, we were fortunate to have a respectable represenatation of our side of the hobby for 10 plus years. We'll continue to support the site and attend this event the weekend before Thanksgiving this year, regardless what the criticism's might be.

I respect the opinions of those who think that to step foot on a mainstream event site is sac religious and never once have I ridiculed anyone here for that. It's odd however that for someone, a mess, or a unit to make public that they're going to attend a mainstream event it'd draw the ire of some here.

A little off topic for this thread, but in the same ball field...in my opinion of course.

[boreguard]

Re: Personality vs. Purpose: Event Criteria

Pat...Pat...I can't see you ! Where'd you go ?

[btfire]

Re: Personality vs. Purpose: Event Criteria

This event is vital to the survival of the site which no longer enjoys any public funding. The efforts for the past 10 years we hosted this event have grossed over $85,000.00 dollars. Was it worth it ? Sure. Did we endure mainstream sights and smells ? Yea, but those sights and smells attended and supported us in our efforts, so at the end of the day would we cut off our nose to spite our face ? No. Think of our time spent similar to that of a march of many miles designed to raise funds for some worthy cause.

Bully for you! Keep up the good work. There is a preservation effort and something that makes the event worth it. I just cannot accept adjunks which work to bring the c/p/h community to a lower level for the sake of numbers.

[flattop32355]

Re: Personality vs. Purpose: Event Criteria

I'm gonna stick my nose in where it really doesn't belong....

Question: To what purpose(s) is a campaigner adjunct at a mainstream (or other even "lower quality") event?

Is it to give campaigners (however one decides to define that term) a place to assemble for an event, of whatever quality, with similarly minded people and at a location closer to home than most EBUFU events?

Is it to provide a better, more accurate experience within that event than would be possible if one were to participate with a typical mainstream (or even "lower quality") unit at said event?

Is it to bring the Gospel of Authenticity to the heathen mainstream or farby units also in attendance?

Is it to show off, to both spectators and other reenactors, that "we" make better looking and acting "CW sojers" than "you" do? (That's not necessarily as flippant a question as it may first appear...)

Other possibilities?

I understand Mr. Deese's questions. I also understand many of the responses. The answer(s) does not appear to be so much of the "either/or" nature, but of the "some of this and some of that" variety. I also understand the desire that scheduled EBUFU events not get undercut by adjuncts on or near the same weekend, in the same manner as multiple EBUFU events on or near the same weekend used to occur, as there are not nearly enough cph bodies to spread around so casually.

[boreguard]

Re: Personality vs. Purpose: Event Criteria

Well framed questions. I also second Bernard's statement below.

"I also understand the desire that scheduled EBUFU events not get undercut by adjuncts on or near the same weekend, in the same manner as multiple EBUFU events on or near the same weekend used to occur, as there are not nearly enough cph bodies to spread around so casually. "

[boreguard]

Re: Personality vs. Purpose: Event Criteria

Brian, I say Bully for Camp Moore not me. I only mention Camp Moore and our experience hosting that event to make the point that not all mainstream events are evil, in addition it's never been touted as an adjunct. As to your statement "I just cannot accept adjunks which work to bring the c/p/h community to a lower level for the sake of numbers " I don't think anyone on this forum that has posted an adjunct has had that as their intention, but if you know of one I'm sure all, or most all, would like to know for the good of the c/p/h community.

[SCTiger]

Re: Personality vs. Purpose: Event Criteria

Dennis:

I am just going to end it here, but I don't think the current round of adjuncts is going to do anything at all to advance this side of the hobby. You obviously don't see a difference. My points were not answered, neither were Brian's, Bernie's or anyone else.

We would like to see better events offered, both here in SC and elsewhere. I will continue to support the people who want to improve. If you prefer adjuncts or mainstream campaigning, make sure to post a guard before you sleep, so you won't get ran over by an ATV, car, horse or a fat, drunken reenactor.

Think with your ramrod Jimmy.

[Eric Tipton]

Re: Personality vs. Purpose: Event Criteria

First, Joe, thanks for the well thought-out post. I think that you put some of the specifics on the discussion that I was looking for and thanks to Greg for coming back in to clarify his points as well.

To be honest, as Curt said, while we have an adjunct folder and the rules are well-defined, this is definitely a debatable point. In fact, it was a debatable point at the time that the "adjunct" folder was introduced.

I can say that I was in favor of having the adjunct folder as long as the rules were clearly defined. The solution at the time the folder was introduced was to simply say "Not EBUFU". That occurred after a slew of posts, messages to moderators and discussion amongst the AC staff.

I was in favor of continuing the folder because as Joe mentioned, it is well-known that "campaigners" attend other events and at times, "adjuncts" are put together where the "campaigners" have their "event within the event". We know that they happen, so as long as the rules for the folder were well-defined, why not provide a place for the information to be exchanged. It is going to be exchanged anyway, and it isn't a secret, and there was a precedent for this "system".

The template for those types of events was along the lines of the 2002 Perryville event in which the AOP portrayed the 105th Ohio and the "campaigners" formed a battalion to attend and while they participated in the battles, they essentially followed there own agenda for the event, so none of this ius really new. In fact, even when Charles was in charge of the events folder, he called these "Tier 3" events. I simplified the listing leaving only EBUFU events vs. non-EBUFU events as I believed that the tier system was confusing and not clearly-defined.And since since it was brought up, the recent Resaca event basically followed the same template as the Perryville event. There was a battalion-sized unit organized by the WIG and SCAR that participated and essentially had their own event within the event. How we got away from "battalion-sized" to include "company-sized", I am not sure, but we did.

Now, to get to the heart of the points raised here. "Is the AC the place for adjunct events to be listed?" I would argue that it is. If the discussions to raise people for the event are going to occur anyway and if we are able to raise enough people for a battalion, then I think they should be here. Now, to me, that is the point of contention. Do we allow "company-sized" adjuncts or "battalion-sized" adjuncts to be listed? I would say that we should follow the original intent and only alllow "battalion-sized" adjuncts. This would greatly decrease the number of events listed in the "adjunct" folder, but still allow communication amongst "campaigners" to occur here. As I stated earlier, the precedent for this type of arrangment is not new. It has been done here for better than seven years, so I don't necessarily agree that this is some phenomenon that has recently occurred.

The question of schedule was raised. That is, someone comes in and drops an adjunct event on top of an EBUFU event. On one hand, I would argue that we have no real control over this as we have no control over the scheduling of mainstream events. I would, however, agree that by essentially doing this according to the pre-existing model of "battalion-sized" adjuncts, we could cut down the number of events and concentrate solely on those where there is a large campaigner presence.

Lastly, I would agree that the membership of the AC has changed over the years - not by design, but by something that I would say is a good thing. In my opinion, one of the goals - especially on the forums has been to convince people that they were "going to the wrong events". I would say that based on the number of people coming to the AC (aside from the great forum outages of 2004-05) is a positive sign that the message has gotten out there to people. Now, I understand that the effects on the forum have not always been positive, because it was originally intended to be for "campaigners only", but if we have their attention and they are here to ask questions and improve, why would we want to cast aside these converts or potential converts? How many times have we seen people say that "this was my first progressive/authentic/campaigner event?

My suggestion on this point has always been to move all of those types of posts to the "Camp of Instruction" folder where they belong. That was the specific reason that the COI folder was set up.

Well, it looks like I have written another one of my 500 word posts (when 50 might do). I offer my points only as a response to those raised against the adjunct folder. It seems as if the "debatable point" has been raised again, and I think that making the folder for "battalion-sized" events as opposed to "company-sized" events would be a logical place to start.

Humbly submitted, etc...

[PogueMahone]

Re: Personality vs. Purpose: Event Criteria

Eric,

I have just one question:

What constitutes a "battalion"?

And I'm not asking to be a smart ass. I'm asking because technically you could have 4 10-man companies and call it a battalion. And that may be historically accurate for an 1865 CS infantry regiment marching toward Bentonville. But not for Manassas or the Red River Campaign or Chickamauga.

When was the last time an EBUFU event fielded a "battalion" of substantial strength? Probably that Perryville 105th Ohio impression you mentioned above. I think we had 8 companies of roughly 30 men each in our battalion.

So, is an adjunct going to produce an EBUFU battalion or something less? I'm betting something less.

So, again, I ask, what constitutes a "battalion" for the purposes of non-EBUFU adjuncts?

[boreguard]

Re: Personality vs. Purpose: Event Criteria

Greg, you make many assumptions about me, and especially whether or not I care for Adjuncts/mainstream events over C/P/H events. I'll let it go here as well, but before I do let me say that you don't know me, and to my knowledge have never met me. You've nothing to base your lofty opinions about my intentions, or in your words my inability to see the difference in the two but supposition. Yes I do care for C/P/H events and strive to include them in my schedule, over a mainstream event if at all possible. You've no idea what I've attended or not over my 16 years in the hobby, at least if you were keeping roll I didn't know it. I don't wear my events on my signature line.

Lastly, if you meant to direct your first post at me why didn't you say so ? My primary message in response to the post that followed your initial one was simply a diplomatic way of saying "if you don't want to read the post in threads about certain events, then don't. If you don't want to attend an adjunct then don't. If you want to sit in judgement many hundreds of miles away from where adjuncts, mainstream, or C/P/H may take place, then by all means do so. But to plea for some new rule, or guidelines about certain threads, in order to address what you might think is such a great problem is nothing more than knee jerk.

If you feel the need to continue your effort to bash me do so via P.M. so that this thread doesn't inflame someone else and they create a whole other campaign for the moderators to deal with.

I don't think anyone on this forum has the intention of wrecking the A/C community, I certainly don't and I don't think you do either. You and I may disagree, but I'll agree to disagree and respectfully end it here with you.