Taking Hits

[chaplain]

Re: Taking Hits

I'm fairly sure that the exact statistics for casualties on both sides are documented somewhere for just about all battles that ever occured during the civil war. It seems to me that if we wanted to be accurate in the portrayal of the battles that the company commanders would do the math and figure out the correct percentage of their men that need to take a fall during the battle. Then simply have everyone count off and every 3rd, 4th, 5th or whatever man has to fall at some point. I don't know, that just my 2 cents worth on the matter.

Respectfully,
Adam LIPKA

This has been done. But I've only seen it done once, and it was rather effective. It was at the 135th Gettysburg. We had already burned powder all day Friday and Saturday. The only "designated" hits took place at Pickett's Charge during the last engagement that Sunday. Our officers were given the percentages of casualties. We had to figure out how many of our Batt would take hits on the open field, how many would make it to the road, how many would die at the fence, and how VERY few would make it all the way to the wall. It was a fantastic display for the spectators (as far as percentages go).

We ended up drawing straws. It was a memorable experience. Our company had quite a variety of men for the weekend. It was made up of about 10+ Georgians, 10+ Tar Heels, 4 from Great Britain, and 4 from Brazil! When it came to those who would actually make it to the wall, our percentage ended up telling us that only 4 could make it. So we decided it was fair for 1 man from each group to make it. I'm not even sure they all made it though. Most of the 4 got pretty close but I seem to remember them saying it would've looked pretty ridiculous if they HADN'T taken a hit. So, I guess my input is this: drawing straws or taking volunteers to match percentages is the best way to go, but you still have to be reasonable about it.

[Jim of The SRR]

Re: Taking Hits

i agree with both of you bob and troy,as crazy as that sounds. i
always open to new ideas and new thoughts about things...but im cursed with being in a union outfit that cares more bout battle events than living history. but i deal with it.

Shane,

I suggest attending the SRR max effort events to get away from the issues that pertain to 'sham' battles. At most c/p/h events and better adjuncts, hits are bets controlled by the leadership of the battalion having an officers call prior to the battle. At the meeting the actual history of what happened to the regiment portrayed is summarized. The actions and movements of the scenario are then reviewed. This cues the officers to know when the battle is reach its intensity and when hits should be taken. In many cases, fate cards are handed out just prior to the battle. The officers then go back to their company and let the men know that they should take hits when he and the file closers indicate to them (based on what was discussed at the battalion meeting). The problem with 'fate' cards or colored rounds only is that it does not allow for a prompting to the men when to actually take a hit.

I have found this system has worked so well at events from Pickett's Mill to 'At High Tide'. Once everyone goes into the scenario with the right mindset and attitude, all there needs to be is a bit of choreography by the officers prior to the battle, subtle prompts to the men and it usually comes off great. This never works at the mainstream events you are attending because very few go into the battle with the right mindset. Powder burning is the priority and historically recreated scenarios takes a backseat.
You can't script everything, but there must be some planning.

Again, I urge you to attend the max effort SRR calendar to best experience better battle scenarios.

Thanks,
Jim Butler

[CaptainPinson]

Taking Hits

After being in this Hobby or Lifestyle for 24 years, we stand at each other and fire & fire and nobody falls or takes "Hits". I’ve notice how stupid it looks and how it looks to the public, and the fact that it dishonors the veterans of the blue and gray that we try to honor when we take the field.
I’ve come with a system that I think will work for us to use…. If take rounds at the battalion level or company level and issue them out as you go thru inspection, but nobody knows if they got one or not.
Yellow—you’re Walking Wounded (you go down as wounded but can get back in line or fight from your position you are at)
Red—Your Wounded (You go down as Wounded and stay where you are)
Black—Dead (you are dead, you can’t do anything).
This system can be used thru all of the services (artillery, infantry, and cavalry).
Artillery—uses this but as long as they can still fire and operate the gun safely
Cavalry—uses this but as long as they can do it safely (would like to see more cavalry fall off their horses).
Now as Officers go....I think we can come up with some kind of system for walking wounded, wounded, death.

M.Shane Pinson, Pvt.
90th Illinois Infantry

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Taking Hits

Hallo!

Other Periods of reenacting have experimented with the "colored chit" or "fate card" systems.

As with taking hits, they found that lads who do not take hits, do not regard their chits either. (Leading to one wag complaining about lads not taking a chit.)

But, yes, aside from the logistics, it works moderately well enough when there is a desire to use it. In the field, a common experience is that it is not a problem for the units that do not need a chit or card system, and even with chits and cards it can still be a problem with lads or units that won't do either.

Curt

[Ken Knopp]

Re: Taking Hits

Gents,
As authentic as it may seem to appear cavalry cannot take hits. First, the obvious initial fall from the horse would get someone hurt. Second, loose horses on the battlefield are an extreme danger for everyone around including the horse (think the recent movie "war Horse"). Third, the trooper holding onto a horse while lying on the ground in a battle is a ticket for a trip in an ambulance, a loose horse (see above) or both. And finally, it would look stupid. We cannot be stunt men (most of us are too old anyway) and so it would just appear silly. A hokey death scene from a 1920's silent (B or C Hollywood) movie comes quickly to mind.
It all sounds good and of course, looks good on paper but in execution- a train wreck.
Most of us cav guys are way too old to fall off of anything higher than the living room couch. When I was in my teens I fell or jumped off horses for fun (and chicks) and somehow, it never hurt. In my twenties I rodeo'd and did some movie stunt work either being bucked off horses or saddle falls, horse falls etc. and it hurt. The last time (when I was about 33) I did a saddle fall from a running horse... it nearly killed me. Today, in my fifties? No way- at least, not by choice. Fact is, the body completely looses its spring or bounce at about age 28 or earlier. After that, one just splats like an egg.
The reality is, I still feel everyone of those falls today- every morning and usually all day long.

Ken R Knopp

[IowaYank]

Re: Taking Hits

Damn Ken, so your saying I only have four more years of spring and bounce when I take hits?? :p

I do try to take hits off horseback as much as I can since I am still in the point where it doesn't hurt yet. Whenever I do I usually hand off my lead rope to a pard next to me and have him lead my horse away. Then again that gives someone else a burden of having an extra horse with them for a bit.

At Bummers on Sunday morning we were pushing the Missouri Engineer foraging party (I believe it was) pretty hard. They were armed with repeaters and they decided to make a stand on the road at the bottom of the hill. Well, we came hard charging down that road at them. When we got to within 30 yards or so they opened up. Man, it was some intense gunfire coming at us! Jerry Ross and myself were at the head of the column at the time and both of us took dives out of the saddle as hits. It was too intense of gunfire for us not to be dead. We did have to do the scrambling act to grab reins or lead ropes as neither of us planned on taking those hits until the last second, but it worked out as our horses didn't react.

I agree, that for the most part lots of guys can't take hits out of the saddle like they used to be able to. I'm just counting my time before it catches up to me.

[Steven Dacus]

Re: Taking Hits

Along those same lines, I must confess a pet-peeve that I have. It amazes me how many "Theatrical" people can get when taking hits. In fact if you are unfortunate enough to see someone hit for real, they immediately fall like a sack of potatoes (if hit in the core/torso area). I don’t pretend to say that have seen "Hundreds" of impact shots or otherwise be an expert in this realm, but In my profession, I’ve seen enough people get hit with our modern day small caliber rounds that drop instantly (as if immediately paralyzed whether wounded or killed). I would assume that with slower/larger caliber rounds the effect would be even more so. Just some food for thought.

Steve Dacus
Casper, Wyoming
11th Ohio Cav (6th Ohio: 1st Bat)

[Jerry Ross]

Re: Taking Hits

When you are up close and personal on horseback: yell ,scream, slump over ,lean back, take your horse to the rear .You don't always have to fall off. I have been "GOT" a few times and there was not a good place to fall off. You have to respect the others when they get the drop on you . Of course respect is a hard thing to get and easy to lose.

Yeah !Dan that was cool!!! Seeing Smokey slid out from under you at a dead run made me winch enough for you and I both.

[Secesh]

Re: Taking Hits

I was on the receiving end of a .38 hollowpoint fired by an individual I caught playing with an "unloaded" Ruger .357....Not only did I drop, but I didn't even realize I had been hit...I recall looking over my shoulder as I fell (in what seemed to me slow motion) looking for the hole in the wall. It wasn't until I was on the ground that it dawned on me what had occurred...I am sure it was much the same for many of the men in the ranks but there would have been those who, because of lower velocity and distance, were able to walk or stumble off, or slowly sink to the ground.

[toptimlrd]

Re: Taking Hits

Which is why when I "take a hit" I always hit the ground at first. If I am only "wounded" I may move around a little on the ground and "look" for the wound. I may straggle back to my feet and limp off or get a friend to help me to the rear.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Taking Hits

Hallo!

Herr Ken forgot to mention that the older one gets, the harder the ground becomes.

:)

Curt

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Taking Hits

Please Note: Mr. Pinson: You made this same proposal back in 2009, so I have merged the threads together.

[Hank Trent]

Re: Taking Hits

As authentic as it may seem to appear cavalry cannot take hits.

My first reaction on reading that sentence was, "Of course they can..." And then I realized you meant off horseback. And then my mind boggled, because it had never occurred to me before:

Has anyone researched, what percentage of cavalrymen were wounded or killed from the saddle, vs. on foot with their horses being held by horse-holders?

On the one hand, they spent far more time in the saddle, so the odds would be higher. On the other hand, when they were closest to the danger and least apt to be able to retreat quickly if necessary, they would be on foot.

Not that it's a big deal, but it's a question I've never seen come up.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[IowaYank]

Re: Taking Hits

Seeing Smokey slid out from under you at a dead run made me winch enough for you and I both.

Yeah Jerry,Smokey took a head dive on that one that's for sure! I think that was a little more realistic of a hit then I would like to do again! And to think the only thing that hurt was from my tin drum canteen hitting me on the back of the head!

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Taking Hits

Here's the counterpoint to this discussion...
Why the whole topic is ridiculous:

http://video.nationalgeographic.com/video/national-geographic-channel/shows/explorer-1/ngc-the-art-of-dying/