Taking Hits

[CaptainPinson]

After all these years in the hobby its a shame that we have not come up with a better way to "Take a Hit" or "Die" on the field. I remember a few years back I went to the Grand Western Tactical in Ky. I think the way they came up with was for colored cartridges to be put in the boxes and you didn't know they were in there.

Black - Dead(till the fight is over)
Red - Wounded(till the fight is over,but you cant get up and move around)
Yellow- Walking Wounded(till the fight is over,you cant get up and move around but you cant get back into your lines)

I think we need to put this into the hobby as a whole and the hobby will be so much the better for it. Hey, I get it that we don't like to take hits when its been raining or the sun is hot. However if we are trying to show what it was like 150 years ago on the field of battle then I think we owe it to ourselves, the public, and the men that fought in that war to do our best.

Shane

[CSengineer]

Re: Taking Hits

We've tried that before. The problem is that it still depends on the "honor system". If so many reenactors won't take hits when they know they ought to, i.e. when the enemy unloads a volley from 30 yards, I can't see these guys taking hits when they draw their colored cartridge.

Never mind that I've never seen an original live cartridge that was red, yellow, black, or any other color (although period blanks were usually blue).

This also requires somebody to be making and distributing these cartridges. Who pays for the powder? When are they issued? Other systems have been tried. Fate cards, "predestination" by the unit commander, you name it.

Several other threads have discussed these issues. In the end it boils down to the fact that some guys take hits and others don't. Several of us West Coasters fly back east for at least one event a year, and one friend of mine always takes an early hit... after traveling 2,000 miles and hauling a musket through airport security and everything. The ones in this category will always take their hits, whether they have colored cartridges or not.

My two cents, anyways.

[CaptainPinson]

Re: Taking Hits

give my regards to my buddy brad blackson....

as far as my unit,the 18th US Regulars...we have done this as a whole for our unit. and we have a power dept and hand out all of our rounds. and its understood that if u pull a round that has a colored thread on it then that what you do and if another of your pards in the ranks sees it and you dont do what it says.then you will be made to sit out one fight,no matter if you drove 5000 miles to an event

[CSengineer]

Re: Taking Hits

I suppose that works, if it is the only way to make people take hits, although it seems (to me, anyways) to be rather arbitrary. In theory, couldn't the whole company pull out colored cartridges during the opening skirmish of the first few minutes of the engagement? Alternatively, when the company is hotly engaged at murderous ranges, might nobody draw the short straw, as it were? I am honestly and legitimately curious. My (admittedly brief) experience with this method, and the discussions in other threads here on the topic, tend to highlight the disadvantages of it. I think an individual who seeks out an authentic unit and is honest enough to take his hit when he draws the colored cartridge would also be authentic and honest enough to take a hit when he ought to, on his own initiative.

If this method works for your unit, though, then by all means keep it up. Certainly not my intent at all to criticize, especially when my unit could definitely do more to take our hits, myself included.

Finally... somewhat off-topic... my unit doesn't issue ammunition and each member is expected to bring their own. How does having ammo distributed by the unit work, in practice? I'm very particular about my cartridges, I like them well made and authentic, and I'm afraid that if the unit issued them to me from a larger pool, I'd end up receiving cartridges made loose and sloppy by someone else.

I'll definitely say hi to Brad for you. Small world, eh?

[CaptainPinson]

Re: Taking Hits

Well...we have cartridge rolling parties, we order let’s say about 20 lbs of powder.

In our unit we have one meeting a month even if we are not going to any event that month....which doesn’t happen often! But when we do, as many of us that can get together at somebody's house do so and start rolling rounds till all the powder is gone and put them into little packets of 10 rounds.

at that point our Ord.Sgt takes them into his care (f he can’t make it we will go get them) and issues the rounds at every event and after the battle on sunday, we turn all of our un-fired rounds back into the Ord Dept.

and while we are rolling them, one round with a colored thread is put into every 20 rounds.
On Friday night at the event, the Ord Sgt loads all of our boxes with 40-60 rounds and does the same sat night. So he's the only one who knows what was put into the boxes.

It works great for us...and in my 21 years in living history, it’s the best system I’ve seen.

thanks, shane

[AZReenactor]

Re: Taking Hits

I dunno, it seems in the hobby I participate in the focus is really on how soldiers actually lived day by day not merely how a soldier died in 3 scheduled sham battles followed by a beer fest and ball. Irritated that men aren't going down when hit from a volley at 30 yards? You may want to try getting off of postage stamp battlefields and get to an event where men are focused on authentically recreating a snapshot of the lives lived by Civil War soldiers, perhaps even an event where you can march and maneuver over miles of terrain. When the adrenaline rush of a sham battle isn't the highlight of the weekend's experiences, taking a fake hit because it is the authentic result of the situation is a whole lot easier.

Civil War combat was life and death real for the participants and mock battles will always be the least authentic thing we can do. There is simply no way to authentically replicate the danger, desperation, and decisiveness of combat in a safe, scripted, pretend manner.

[cprljohnivey]

Re: Taking Hits

I have done the colored cartridges in the past. They are usually distributed by the officer or sgt. during cartridge box inspection prior to the fight.

In my opinion, what events lack is the stream of wounded walking back from the firing line in search of the aid stations and field hospitals. The doctors did not come to the wounded, the wounded came to the doctors. Most wounds statistically were in the right arm and hand from what I have read (think how high your arm goes when you draw your rammer and how soldiers are constantly shooting too high). This should be the case to eliminate or reduce the number of silly limps and musket crutches.

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: Taking Hits

At the events I most enjoy (I hesitate to call them "better") the question of taking hits hardly comes up at all. In a large part it doesn't come up because participants have other matters to focus on, like fieldcraft, marching, and even paperwork. The "EBUFU" events advertised elsewhere on this forum generally provide that kind of experience.

That said, when the question does arise, the two best approaches that I've seen involve the use of fate cards and the keeping of realistic ranges.

With fate cards, you portray an actual soldier of the unit portrayed and you suffer his actual fate. No one sees the card but you and you have some discretion in how you take the hit and at what moment. Sending the casualties to an aid station or a "dead unit" enhances the sense of loss to the survivors.

Maintaining realistic distances with a reasonable rate of fire also helps. We just shouldn't have situations where two formations blaze away at each other at close range. The authentic reaction to such a situation would probably be to run away or go to ground -- historically, far more soldiers would react in that fashion than would "take hits."

But it all depends on how you view authenticity and what you want from an event. Personally, I've found an inverse ratio between the amount of firing and the amount of excitement at an event.

[PogueMahone]

Re: Taking Hits

Shane,

I've been to two large tactical events in Kentucky that were hosted by the NSA during the '90's. One was in a national forest near Louisville and may be the one you are referring to, however that event used referees to hand out casualty cards and to control fights. The referees were officers from the war college at Ft. Knox, I believe. I still have a few of those casualty cards.

I have also heard of the method you describe but have never seen it put into practice. It may work, but does it take into account the actual casualty ratios that occurred in the original battle? That is what I've always thought we should base "hits" on, the historical data. If the unit being portrayed had 7% casualties, then the recreated unit should also have 7% of its force depleted during the course of the battle. We get a better sense of how the ranks contracted during the fight.

Irritated that men aren't going down when hit from a volley at 30 yards?

Troy, this happens at even the best of EBUFU events. In fact, I'll be honest and say that accurate distances are not maintained 90% of the time at EBUFU events.

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: Taking Hits

Troy, this happens at even the best of EBUFU events. In fact, I'll be honest and say that accurate distances are not maintained 90% of the time at EBUFU events.

I'd qualify that to maybe 50%. The last several I've attended did a pretty good job of keeping the forces 150 or more yards apart for most of the time and relying heavily on skirmish formations. ATB provided a pretty good example of both.

But that leads to another point -- good battle management helps enormously, and that involves cooperation between the two commands and good communication up and down the line.

This can work for larger events, too. The Anders-Air events I've participated in don't necessarily meet the EBUFU criteria of this forum, but they've often featured good battle scenarios and credible casualties without fate cards or colored cartridges.

The method used includes having a detailed script for battle recreations that makes an intelligent use of the available land, pre-battle walk-throughs so that commanders understand what they should do and when (including when more or less casualties should occur), and good communication between the commanders and their men.

The resulting scenarios have a lot of moving parts, which means a lot can go wrong, but a surprising lot goes right. The secret seems to lie in getting blue and gray leaders to walk through together and agree to the dance steps in each other's presence. That creates a strong imperative to work as a team rather than refight the battle looking perhaps for a different outcome.

I just mention it as another technique that can people can use without the detailed work that goes into fate cards or making sure everyone on both sides has the requisite number of properly colored cartridges in their boxes.

[CSengineer]

Re: Taking Hits

I dunno, it seems in the hobby I participate in the focus is really on how soldiers actually lived day by day not merely how a soldier died in 3 scheduled sham battles followed by a beer fest and ball.

Beer fest, ball, and Monty Python jokes.

I couldn't agree with you more. I'm a recent convert to this side of the hobby, largely because I want to get more out of this than scheduled sham battles and visits to sutler row. That's why, somewhat intimidated, I've come to A/C and I'm utterly impressed, and a little overwhelmed, at the mountains of information, discussion, and documentation here. Bear with us newly converted mainstreamers as we try to catch up.

[Abrams]

Re: Taking Hits

I am new enough to the hobby, and not done many mainstream events, so I have not had many opportunities to take a hit. Most of my events have been living histories, with no opponents to fight or die from a volley. I am not sure there is a great way to "ensure" people take hits in a realistic manner, but I am enjoying this discussion.

For my only hit so far, I was "executed" recently at Fort D in Cape Girardeau as a confederate prisoner. When I took my hit, with my hands "tied" behind my back, I had not worked out all the details of how to fall. Since I did not have my hands to catch myself with, I shuddered a little at the volley, sank to my knees and did a full face-plant in the soft grass. I must have done it okay, as one child in the crowd started to cry until comforted by his mother telling him it was an act, and the crowd applauded when I finally got up. Several guys came up afterwards, shook my hand, and told me I took a 'Great Hit' and that it looked real as heck.

So when the time comes, I will time my fall with a volley, and I hope to die well. :)

Carry on with the discussion, I was just bored at work and thought to share my only "hit" so far.

[Milliron]

Re: Taking Hits

I dunno, it seems in the hobby I participate in the focus is really on how soldiers actually lived day by day not merely how a soldier died in 3 scheduled sham battles followed by a beer fest and ball. Irritated that men aren't going down when hit from a volley at 30 yards? You may want to try getting off of postage stamp battlefields and get to an event where men are focused on authentically recreating a snapshot of the lives lived by Civil War soldiers, perhaps even an event where you can march and maneuver over miles of terrain. When the adrenaline rush of a sham battle isn't the highlight of the weekend's experiences, taking a fake hit because it is the authentic result of the situation is a whole lot easier.

Civil War combat was life and death real for the participants and mock battles will always be the least authentic thing we can do. There is simply no way to authentically replicate the danger, desperation, and decisiveness of combat in a safe, scripted, pretend manner.

I agree with this notion generally, but only up to a point. I have seen the experience of casualties integrated successfully into EBUFU events in the past--Paynes Farm and Pickett's Mill in 2001 come to mind. the difference in both of those events was that the casualties were historically accurate and were actually separated from the battalion for the remainder of the event. This avoids the "Taps" factor and rather convincingly simulates the "after battle" experience. It creates a negative consequence.

At PM, I was in a large mess of ten men. After the battle, there were three of us. I didn't know whether to feel "lucky" or not. I was lonely, tired, and hungry and all my pards were gone. Those were real feelings, not reenacted ones. It was very effective.

At PF, casualties were light, so no pards lost, but there was a hospital set up and those who were casualties remained so the rest of the night. It was also very convincing.

If you're not going to create actual consequences of being a casualty, then why bother, as Troy said. However, it can be done effectively.

[guad42]

Re: Taking Hits

I really do not like Taps being played at public events; it always makes me cringe a little (no offense to the musician involved). Maybe I need to lighten up a little, I probably due, but in my mind there is only one place outside of the actual service where Taps ought to be played; and that's at a cemetary.

I like the idea of casualties being absent from their respective units; at hospital, etc, for an extended period of time during better events.

-Sam Dolan

[csabugler]

Re: Taking Hits

Sam, most Buglers don't much like doing Taps at events on the field either, Ok at a cemetary service or something, but not after the battle. It takes a good set of stones tho to not play what the event people/commanders want.
I haven't played Taps at a reenactment in years, but have heard it.