How do you Keep em' from falling apart!

[PvtHull48thovi]

Afternoon Gents,

My question here to the older more wise authentics is how do you carry your spare rounds for an event while campaigning. I have always just put them in a small cloth sac which isnt a smart place for inclimate weather.But the question here is where and how do I carry them without them tearing apart or losing all their powder while on a march or at an event!

[PVT.THIB]

Re: How do you Keep em' from falling apart!

Roll them in arsonal packs and keep em in your pack. Works well for me at least.

[lthull3rdla]

Re: How do you Keep em' from falling apart!

hey Jason give me a jingle at the house in the next day or so 318-688-1389

Ronnie

[TheRegularsDrummerCo.H]

Re: How do you Keep em' from falling apart!

I do the same thing Jason does. They stay dry and i put them in my gloves or something so they arent loose in your knapsack. Could anybody tell me what measurements they use for a regular 58 cal. arsenal pack?

Thanks

[CSengineer]

Re: How do you Keep em' from falling apart!

Arsenal packs. Only way to roll.

Then again, if made correctly, a cartridge shouldn't come apart or leak powder even if it is in a poke sack or riding in your haversack or knapsack.

As for measurements... there are several awesome threads on the topic, but I just "eyeball" an approximate sized piece of wrapping paper (the cheaper the better) and use a real simple "bundling block" made from scraps of 2 x 4. For Enfield cartridges, my packages are a little longer than .58 Minie packs, at about 3 inches long. The packages are tight, won't come apart, and just look damn awesome lying on the ground during an event.

Just stay away from labels on the wrappers, unless you're using ammunition from a specific Confederate arsenal, or British-made Enfield cartridges in the original bundle, or from the U.S. arsenal at St. Louis. All other labels are sutler row farbisms.

[flattop32355]

Re: How do you Keep em' from falling apart!

While agreeing with the use of arsenal packs, I've been to a few reenactments where the liquid sunshine saw to it that any packs not given a second layer of isolation ended up mush, and the powder grains became a single lump.

Slipping the packs into a spare pair of socks in the knapsack is helpful, as is wrapping a spare shirt around them.

I've also had an arsenal pack disintegrate in my sack coat pocket from sweating over the course of a weekend.

[unclefrank]

Re: How do you Keep em' from falling apart!

I had two arsenal packs that got soaked in my knapsack at the last Reseca. My pard and I only had enough room in our shelter for the two of us and our muskets. I intend to make a small painted cloth sack to store them from now on.

[PogueMahone]

Re: How do you Keep em' from falling apart!

Where is your second sergeant? Why aren't your extra arsenal packs in the ammunition box?

Your second sergeant is dead? Your company has not been supplied with a box?

Still going to the wrong events?

Period solutions to modern problems ...

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: How do you Keep em' from falling apart!

I guess it depends how many rounds you need to carry. During the Chancellorsville campaign, for example, Federal soldiers had to carry 60 rounds:

Question 2. “The details of the outfit and equipment; the burden carried by each soldier, and its weight,” & c.
Answer. The total weight carried by each soldier was 45 pounds. It consisted of his knapsack, haversack, subsistence, and change of underclothing, overcoat or blanket, arms and accouterments, and one piece of shelter-tent. Eight days short rations were carried on the person, stowed as follows: Five days in the knapsack, and three days in the haversack; 40 rounds of ammunition were carried in the cartridge-boxes, and 20 rounds in the pockets of the man’s clothing. The total weight carried by the men, as reported by the different corps quartermasters, varies somewhat. The amount stated by me, however, is the correct figure.

This is from Ingalls' report to Meigs of May 29, 1863, in the ORs, Part II Series I, Volume 25, pp. 544-547

I believe this became something of a standard.

It does raise the question of how you deal with the problem Bernie mentioned. Even if the arsenal packs are made of sized paper, I can't imagine them being sufficiently waterproof to stand up to a real sweat. But in that case you could stash them in your knapsack or haversack.

Hunter's orders for his May 1864 Valley campaign, for example, called for the men to carry a hundred rounds in their knapsacks, along with eight days rations of hardtack, sugar, and coffee. To make it "easier" on the men, he forbade them tents or any clothes besides those they wore, plus an extra pair of shoes and socks.

But the suggestion to use an ammunition box in lieu of carrying extra rounds has a lot of merit. It reinforces the fact that troops did not have an unlimited supply of noisemaking material on hand, and requires reenacting some very under-represented activities -- resupply in action, or retreat.

[PogueMahone]

Re: How do you Keep em' from falling apart!

Can we document that "40 in the box and 20 in the pockets" was a standard adopted by the army?

What was the Confederate answer to this question?

Unless such orders are known to have been issued for the campaign being portrayed, I really think you have to default to the standard of "issued rounds in the cartridge box, excess rounds in the ammunition box". The number of issued rounds might not be 40. I've seen a few references to men being issued only 10 or 20 or being handed a single cartridge to load for guard duty. I don't consider those references to be "standard" however.

I'd hate to be standing guard with only one cartridge. In the dark. In a lonely spot.

[CSengineer]

Re: How do you Keep em' from falling apart!

The British developed a waterproof "bag" for their 10-round bundles of Enfield ammunition around 1860, and they tested them by immersing the bag and bundle underwater for 24 hours. This is discussed in The British Soldier's Firearm by Roads. Some invariably must have come through the blockade but can't give any documentation to prove it.

That said, when cartridges are constructed using the period methods, and bundled into arsenal packs properly, there is quite a bit of insulation around the powder. Several thicknesses of paper in the cartridge itself, counting internal powder case (Enfield and some .58 Minie cartridges use heavy paper in the construction of the powder cylinder) and the exterior wrapper, plus the bundling paper of the arsenal pack, should keep the powder acceptably dry. At New Market this year I thought my ammo was done for, being left out Saturday night in just a painted cloth haversack, but it held up.

If the cartridges are of the more common reenactor sort, i.e. just a single tube into which powder is dumped, then it's no surprise that the powder is soaking in excessive moisture. The more thicknesses of paper around the powder, the more can be done to deter the hygroscopic effect of the powder.

[Jimmayo]

Re: How do you Keep em' from falling apart!

Here are some pictures of period wrapping. Lots of paper used and in the case of the bullet, the powder was wrapped seperately from the rest of the round. This is also a good example of how tins are used to protect package and prevent damage.

These are US bullets. Even the best of wrapping could not prevent rounds from getting wet on occasion. Most camps contain scores of dropped bullets which were discarded, probably because the rounds spoiled.

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: How do you Keep em' from falling apart!

Can we document that "40 in the box and 20 in the pockets" was a standard adopted by the army?

What was the Confederate answer to this question?

Unless such orders are known to have been issued for the campaign being portrayed, I really think you have to default to the standard of "issued rounds in the cartridge box, excess rounds in the ammunition box". The number of issued rounds might not be 40. I've seen a few references to men being issued only 10 or 20 or being handed a single cartridge to load for guard duty. I don't consider those references to be "standard" however.

I'd hate to be standing guard with only one cartridge. In the dark. In a lonely spot.

Ingalls stayed as the AOP's quartermaster for the rest of the war, so perhaps I should have specified which army. In other cases, like that of Hunter's raid, the orders differed.

But your point is, as I said, well taken. For most events, we ought to be able to find some information on the standard battle load. When we can't, having a reserve supply that has to be brought up or retreated to is a good default.

At Mill Springs the 10th Indiana received the initial Confederate attack at dawn, fought until exhausting their ammo (no indication that they carried more than forty in the box), fell back on their camp as other units came up, then went back into the fight. Because they fell back before some of their fellow regiments came up, then came back up on the line from the rear of those units, there was a widespread impression that they disappeared at the first fire.

That's the kind of thing you can't reenact very well if everyone carries a hundred rounds into the fight.

[Steve Acker]

Re: How do you Keep em' from falling apart!

I agree with Mr. Schaffner. For me carrying more rounds than they did makes cheesy battles even hokier.

A quote from Private Ira Pettit, 11th US Regulars, 2nd Brigade, 2nd Division, 5th Corps at Chanchellorsville: "sixty rounds of ammunition is issued to every soldier and he is supposed to keep that amount on hand but forty rounds is all that the cartridge box will conveniently hold and it is quite a lump to carry: tis a sloven waste to issure any more for it is in most all cases destroyed save the caps. It is done up in papers of 10 rounds each and 12 caps the later are waterproof so are the patent cartidges."

Also, the Museum of the Confederacy transcribed the journal of a sergeant in the 41st Virginia. The tally of rounds and caps for his company might support Mr. Pettit's comment.

Cartridges Caps
Frith 18 50
Folkes 18 20
McGruder 18 50
Ellis 32 94
Bransford 39 61 18 Guns
Clary 33 26 18 Cartridge Box
Coyle 37 100
Gary 35 50 18 Waist belts
Hancock 37 30
Loving 38 18 Cap boxes
McLelland 36 70 10 Bayonets
McCook 40 50 15 knapsack
Quigley 39 70 17 Haversack
Smith 17 65 24-17 Canteens
Summers 1- 42 50
Toler J 40 20
Toler 40 30
Tucker 38
445 740

Let history tell us what to carry and how much.

Steve Acker

[john duffer]

Re: How do you Keep em' from falling apart!

Only slightly off topic but pertaining to number of rounds carried by reenactors is the subject of weight - 100 rounds in a knapsack is a lot different when there's no lead involved.