Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

[SCTiger]

How many of you would be interested in a LH at Fort Sumter for the aftermath of the failed September 8-9, 1863 Navy/Marine boat landing, a POW scenario, that takes place on the day after?

There are not too many venues to accurately display an accurate Marine/Naval uniform. You would not need much equipment, since the weapons have been confiscated. It would run Saturday and Sunday with the SC Confederates as the Guards.

This LH would not be as complex as others in the past and would be semi-immersion. The focus would be on Fort Sumter as an "Infantry" target. As far as I know this has never been done before at Ft. Sumter.

Now here's the twist.

I would also like a real Veteran feel to this event. Army Vets with the Confederates and Marines/Navy with the Union of course. In that way a natural resentment level will develop and we will see who has the best program. Some don't need additional resentment, but more can't hurt.

So what about the Air Force, Coast Guard, and Citizens? Choose either side, but, choose wisely. We could conclude with a salute to all Veterans and visits from current active-reserve units.

I hope I get some support form all the Army grunts. The size of the event will depend on the response.

Pete will lead the Marines. I need some Army commander types for the Confederates.

This would be the 2013 year after Vicksburg and Gettysburg. So we have time.

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

I would be quite interested, as there aren't too many authentic venues for me to persue my naval impressions.

[Sgt Scotti]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

Greg, Id be interested in giving Pete a hand. We cant let you Army doggies have all the fun.

[SCTiger]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

We have talked a lot of smack over the years between the various services and I want to end the LH event with a very intense rounders tournament with a new "Fort Sumter Trophy" awarded to the winning commander, and repeat the event every three years. Engrave the winning name on the side. Possession of the trophy would be a high motivator.

This would be a good way to settle accounts North/South, Blue vs. Gray, Army vs. Army Support Service, SC versus everyone.

[majdoc]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

Greg
Sounds interesting
Keep us informed
Doc

[sigsaye]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

Any authentic venue for an authentic Naval Impression is very interesting. Please excuse my ignorance, but who is Pete?

Steve Hesson

[sigsaye]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

I guess another question I have about this would be about standards. The Army side of the house is pretty well established as to what is correct and what is bogus. What would be the standards for the Navy side? Who would set them? I have been studying Sailors for about 40 years now, and professionally with the Civil War for the last six. Sadly, there are maybe 15 authentic Naval impressions available in the country. The rest range from "incorrect" to "Gastly". While many have substandard uniforms, most have no real clue as to what it was to be a Sailor. Most of those doing a Naval impression simply think it like an Army inpression with more comfortable and cheap, without having to do any drill. As has been noted before, basically poor Mainstream Dismounted Boat Cavelry.

I know this sounds pretty negative, and I don't mean it to. This is something I personally would love to do. But if these things arn't set up now, and it turns into a "Ya'll Come" on the Navy side, you are going to end up with a cross between Yahoos and Pirates.

I would hope some of the more authentically minded on here would start putting together a basic set of working blues and reading "Life in Mr. Linconls Navy".

Steve Hesson

[Mudslinger]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

Greg,

Ahhhhhh, the old failed US Naval amphibious attack on Ft. Sumter. I'll have to dig out my old U.S. Navy stuff from the old days of the "Charleston Naval Squadron". We did an impromptu educational film for the USMC Parris Island gang for their Basic Training videos for new recruits back in 1997. There was only around 15 Sailors and Marines in the video, and the CS guys were the 10th and 27th SC respectively. I may have some extra stuff if anyone is interested. Keep me posted bo!

[SCTiger]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

Hello Steve:

The Pete is Pete Berezuk and he has a Marine impression, is a former Marine and a member of our mess. As far as standards go, we will research them and get good advice from experienced living historians such as yourself. I can't imagine that the assault force had a lot of campaign gear on outside of their weapons and uniforms. Hopefully we could work up more than 15 people with good impressions. I have four that have expressed interest. This would be a small LH program, maybe no more than 60 at the most, 30 Confederate/30 US.

As to the yahoo factor, the standards would be enforced and the show boaters (no pun intended) will not be welcomed. We could talk for pages on this but, we would be firm with the uniforms and gear.

There are two hobbies and this would be a chance for our hobby, (LH/Campaigner) to show what we could do with a good scenario like this. This is why I posted this on the AC, to get that nation wide support from people that want to do things right. Many of these folks will surprise you with what they will do to attend a good event. At least 20 so far are putting together an accurate 1st U. S. Artillery for January, 2011. If we had a group of people that built a good Navy/Marine impression, it would open doors for other events and for that element to attend coastal and river events where those impressions would be used.

Time is also the critical element for specialty impressions events, I am of the opinion that two years is the minimum needed, between research, constructing and gathering of gear to getting the necessary numbers. In this case we can get the facility.

[sigsaye]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

I'm all for this event. I think it is a great idea. But, like I was saying, is am generally embarassed by the vast majority of Naval impressions I have seen.
You are absolutely correct as to gear. They shouldn't have anything. The actual landing party would have been armed as Infantry with a mixed bag of Army surplus gear and weapons. Since they were intended to carry the fort, most likely there was no field gear. this sort of stuff was not carried in great numbers aboard ships as ground combat was not the real busness of the Navy. They had it, but not a lot of it.

Mostly you need to shake out the uniforms. Most Naval impressions I have seen consist of white frocks (only worn for dress occassions by direction of the Senior Officer Present afloat, not for daily work wear), black ribbons on their hats or worse a cap tally with a ships name on them. I can't find any evidence of plain black ribbons ever being worn and named cap tallies were not regulation so reserved for dress up occassions.

I'm just trying to help get a handel on the Navy side early. I have written a series of research papers over the years concerning Naval uniforms of the era and generally my findings disagree with the standard Naval reenactors impression. Basically, the uniform should consost of a blue frock (this is today called a jumper), plain, no fancy work, no stars. While machine sewn is accurate, all button holes were hand sewn with a crows foot at the "V" of the collar. There should also be binding stitches reinforcing the "V". If there are pockets in the frock, there should be crows feet at the ends. The trousers, again, plain. Fly front or fall front. The legs were cut to a width of four inches wider than the thigh from crotch to cuff. Crows feet at the base of the side slits for fall fronts. In the rear, there should be a sizing gussett from four to six inches deeo. It should have hand sewn eyelets, mounted in pairs, from five to thirteen. There were small brass eyelets like in shoes used sometimes, but these were in only appear in the really nice dress up uniforms, not the every day working gear. Plain undershirt, blue or white/natural. No stripes, no embroidery. Plain flat hat, do ribbons, bows or toppers.

Sorry if it looks like I am comming off ranting. I just get passionate about this impression like some of the Army folks do with theirs. I spent 26 years in the Navy, my father and uncle 20 each (uncle was at Pearl Harbor), my sister and son are active duty Sailors. So this isn't just an impression to me, it's sort of family history. I just want to see it done right. Oh man, I'm starting to sound like those guys that say stuff like "If I put on a Blue/Bray suit, my ancestor would spin in his grave!":confused_

Any way, If I can help with this, let me know. I have no problem sharing info.

Steve Hesson

[SCTiger]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

Steve:

That is the sort of valuable information we could use. I believe this impression could be utilized at a variety of events from Port Royal, Fort Fisher, Vicksburg, Olustee and Vicksburg; just to name a few. Simple is better and the less frills and complexity is exactly what the whole campaigner model is about. The Navy impressions could benefit from your knowledge and research.

Shoot me a email and I seriously want your input, and no you are not ranting. :) I feel the same way when people misrepresent the South Carolina Infantry impression.

[Mudslinger]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

Check out these reference materials for local Naval action and research in the Charleston area:

The Seige of Charleston1861-1865 by E. Milby Burton, Universoty of South Carolina Press, Columbia, SC. 7th Reprint 1994.

Any books by Dr. Charlie Peery, Charleston, SC. Charlie is a HUGE CW Naval buff, especially the Charleston Naval Squadron. Charlie has written several well-documented and researched books on the Navy actions on both the US/CS sides in Charleston. Charlie was one of the Key figures in the attempt to rebuild the CSS Chicora in the 90's.

There are several other local well-researched books that I have about the US/CS Navy in and around Charleston. I'll get them out of the dugout and post them here.

The U.S. Naval Forces in and around Charleston were well supplied and well equipped. Dalghren's fleet were comprised of rugged, seasoned sailors in the Charleston area.

One funny instance that occurred at Ft. Sumter after the sailors were captured:

"The prisoners were treated considerately. Their baggage and medical supplies for the wounded were brought to them under a flag of truce. The Navy must have been extremely sure of success. Among the articles brought in were two boxes: one was addressed to Lt. E.P. Williams, commanding Ft. Sumter; the other to Ens. Benjamin H. Porter, Fort Sumter. The boxes contained many delicacies, "and were probably intended to grace a festival in honor of the capture of the fort".

[Mudslinger]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

Steve, sounds like you're on the ball. I'm just a Navy brat (Dad spent 20 years as a "bubblehead").

[elcid01]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

This seems interesting. Would like to help out the Army Men on this on.. considering my position on things.

[sigsaye]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

Check out these reference materials for local Naval action and research in the Charleston area:

The Seige of Charleston1861-1865 by E. Milby Burton, Universoty of South Carolina Press, Columbia, SC. 7th Reprint 1994.

Any books by Dr. Charlie Peery, Charleston, SC. Charlie is a HUGE CW Naval buff, especially the Charleston Naval Squadron. Charlie has written several well-documented and researched books on the Navy actions on both the US/CS sides in Charleston. Charlie was one of the Key figures in the attempt to rebuild the CSS Chicora in the 90's.

There are several other local well-researched books that I have about the US/CS Navy in and around Charleston. I'll get them out of the dugout and post them here.

The U.S. Naval Forces in and around Charleston were well supplied and well equipped. Dalghren's fleet were comprised of rugged, seasoned sailors in the Charleston area.

One funny instance that occurred at Ft. Sumter after the sailors were captured:

"The prisoners were treated considerately. Their baggage and medical supplies for the wounded were brought to them under a flag of truce. The Navy must have been extremely sure of success. Among the articles brought in were two boxes: one was addressed to Lt. E.P. Williams, commanding Ft. Sumter; the other to Ens. Benjamin H. Porter, Fort Sumter. The boxes contained many delicacies, "and were probably intended to grace a festival in honor of the capture of the fort".

The thing to consider with this is that these guys were making the assault in boats. the boats themselves were either rowed or towed to the beach. The individual Sailors would not have been carrying a bunch of stuff, just not room in the boat. They would have a waist belt, cap pouch if required for the weapon carried, bayonet for the weapon carried and a cartridge box, on the belt if possible as that was the Navy way. They may also have had a haversack and canteen, but not much else. Which explains the part about "Baggage and medical supplies for the wounded being brought to them". This stuff would have been in follow on boats. I've done real amphibious assaults, and even with modern comms, coordination and planning they can get confuseing.

The River and Coastal Sailors did spend a great deal of time conducting operations ashore. but, they kept them as short as possible. They traveled very light with maybe a blanket roll if the mission was to take more than a day.

I will admit that my interest is more about the material and social culture of the American Sailor. The actual Civil War (and I know this is blasphmey) doesn't really interest me that much beyond the Sailor.

Really looking forward to this one.

Steve Hesson