Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

[SCTiger]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

Did anyone ever find any information on exactly happened to the prisoners and the Union dead? This is an interesting find:

Charles H. Bradford, First Lieutenant and assistant quartermaster in the Corps. Mortally wounded in the night assault at Fort Sumter on September 8, 1863 and died in captivity on September 25, 1863. (ORN 1, 14, 629 and 630). Through the influence of a former friend in Charleston, Dr. Mackie, he was buried in the Magnolia Cemetery, but at the insistence of the citizens of Charleston, his body was re-interred and reburied in the potter's field. (ORN 1, 15, 374). On March 16, 1865, his remains were removed from the potter's field to the Magnolia Cemetery, Charleston, S.C. (ORN 1, 16, 372)

At the Battle of Atlanta LH this weekend, we had a lot of good response to this idea.

[AndrewGrim]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

This is an interesting idea. It is certainly different. I do have some questions. Is proper clothing for Naval and Marine clothing available or does it has to be self made? Is there a Blue Jacket Manual available for the era?

[sigsaye]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

Well, as far as vendors of Naval uniforms go, at this point I think I am the only one that makes accurate garments. Ross makes a pretty fair frock. The items from the other vendors that I know of are incorrect in cut, construction, and materials. And some of it is Paki made.

There is no "Blue Jackets Manual" of the period. The closest thing was the "Kedge Anchor" which was written in 1846. However it does not give the information that modern Living Historians require as to reproducing Naval uniforms. The Wife and I have spent about six years examining original uniforms, looking at hundreds of photos and reading dozens of diarys and letters. I am in the process of putting this information together.

That was one of the reasons I asked what the standards were going to be, and who was going to set them. That way the info could be put out in plenty of time so folks could get an impression together without waithing to the last minute and trying to find the info to do it.

Most folks think Navy uniforms are pretty simple. Far from it. They are not the same as modern unforms. The fact that about 90% of all Sailors clothing was made by the Sailors themselves, out of what ever fabrics were available to them makes it some what difficult to make them. Basically, there are certain common features in all of them, but no standard patterns. Additionally since most surviving uniforms were fancy liberty uniforms and not the daily working uniforms (which this impression would call for) most folks think Sailors embroidered all over their gear. This is not correct. The uniforms for this impression would be plain, which would help make it a bit easier.

Steve Hesson

[sigsaye]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

To answer another basic question, no there are no patterns available. There is a line drawing set of plans for a button dowm front frock (not much used in the CW but common reenactor item) and an undershirt.

Karen and I drafted our patterns from original uniforms

Steve Hesson

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

The esteemed Mr. Hesson is being entirely modest here. His research should be the base of any living historian wanting to put together a shore party. Start hitting him up now with your orders for garments, or get ahold of Joe Blunt who makes the basics as well. Looks like I'll be making up some more loaner frocks...

[SCTiger]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

Steve:

I appreciate your insight and research, a casual search of online information reveals what you are fighting against. There are numerous Naval & Marine LH units that obviously have not taken your objective approach, most want to look good rather than making it look right.

In regards to Charleston in September, I would imagine light weight duck, sail cloth would have been the preferred material. There are pictures of Sailors on the USS Pawnee off the Charleston harbor, I don't know if they posed in their best dress for the image or not.

Here is one of the Monitor in 1862, it was supposed to be part of the Charleston blockade, before it sank.




Also, attached is an image of the Fort Sumter ruins, what the Boat Assault was up against.

[sigsaye]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

The uniforms would have been blue. Most would have been made of kersey for the trousers and blous weight flannel for the frocks. Some would have been blouse flannel fro frocks and trousers and there may have been a few blue denim or blue cotton drill.

The white duck we know today was not used to make white uniforms. White uniforms would not have been worn for this sort of evolution. I've soent the last three days pulling up everything I have ever written on the subject and re edited it, adding and deleeting things (and doing some serious spelling corrections that I am sure Ross will agree were sorely needed:wink_smil).

Any one who would like to contact me about this impression please feel free to do so. We can talk generalities of the uniforms or talk about making them.

I'm not sure if I can post my web site here as I am not an "Aproved Vendor", but you can contact me through this forum.

I've been on this forum since it started some ten years ago and have never seen any thing but "bad mouth" concerning a Naval impression. I'm really excited to see some interest in it here finally and would hope the same effort into getting it right is put into it as with every other impression Authentics work up. It's not just going to the surplus store, finding a set of Navy blues, stripping the pipping off and calling it right.

Steve Hesson

[sigsaye]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

Steve:

I appreciate your insight and research, a casual search of online information reveals what you are fighting against. There are numerous Naval & Marine LH units that obviously have not taken your objective approach, most want to look good rather than making it look right.

In regards to Charleston in September, I would imagine light weight duck, sail cloth would have been the preferred material. There are pictures of Sailors on the USS Pawnee off the Charleston harbor, I don't know if they posed in their best dress for the image or not.

Here is one of the Monitor in 1862, it was supposed to be part of the Charleston blockade, before it sank.




Also, attached is an image of the Fort Sumter ruins, what the Boat Assault was up against.

What this picture shows is a group of Sailors in their everyday, year round working gear. Take a close look. Plain, light weight, mix of hats and shoes (the mechanics hats were favored by the engineers).

The most likely rig for the assault would have been flannel frock, kersey trousers, blue flannel or cotton undershirt with a blue flat hat. Most likely a neckerchief which probebly would have either been tucked into the front of the frock or turned around backwards to keep the ends from getting in the way (with the assumption they were loading and fireing muskets at least for a little while). Again, all plain, no bows ribbons or decorations. There may have been some blue denim uniforms mixed in but I could not say definately.

Steve Hesson

[sigsaye]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

Something else to think about is the organisation. There is no problem with Sailors sreving under Marine officers, nor is there any issue with Marines under Navy officers. That was done all the time. However, within the ranks of the Navy enlisted, most folks don't realize that a Pety Officer was not the same as an NCO in the Army or Marines. While some Petty Officers had military authority over the men iassigned to them, they had no authority over others. Some Petty Officers had no authority at all as they were actually just craftsmen. Only the Ships Master-At-Arms had full time military authority over all Sailors on his ship. For landing parties, Petty Officers were placed in charge of groups of Sailors for the duration of the evolution.

As for officers, the Navy system was just a bit different than the Army/Marines. Ensigns were sort of like Third LTs. They were graduated Midshipmen. While they had officer authority, they were new at it. Next came a rank called "Master". (this becomes LTJG in 1871). These were officers (equivelant to 2nd LT in rank) who were not "regular" officers. They did not come from the academy. Many were formere Enlisted Sailors with many years of experience. Many were skilled civilian mariners who were commissioned into the Navy due to their skills. These men would not hold any other rank. They exsisted to work directly with Enlisted Sailors (The Navys old caste system did not allow officers and gentelmen to deal with enlisted Sailors and scum other than shouting orders). These men were generaly skilled, seasoned and respected by both officers and men. They wore officer uniforms with a single breasted frock coat, blank shoulder straps and a line star on the cuffs, or a row of three buttons around the cuff.

Then there were the Masters Mates. These were much like the Chief Petty Officers of today. There may only be one or two per ship. They also wore officer uniforms except that they wore an officers short jacket with two rows of six medium size buttons on the front and four cuff buttons on the cuffs.

I'm trying to do a bit of educating here to hopefully spike some interest. You'll have to figure out how large a group of POWs you're going to have before you start filling in these blanks.

Steve Hesson

[508preach]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

C'mon Greg, you know where I'm gonna be right? Hahaha just be prepared, cause right now you have 3 Marines (2 active duty) on the Marines side and one with SERE school under his belt.

[Mudslinger]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

Steve,

Count me in on the Navy side. I'll need a new uniform, it's been a long time since I've done a Navy impression, and grew out of my old uniform. I may be able to fit into the fall-front next year, but I'll need a new blouse. Can you help me out? I'm set in all other regards concerning accoutrements, rifle, hat, etc... My impression is for one of the ships' crew of the U.S.S. Weehawken.

[Mudslinger]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

Greg,

One item of interest that I've researched is that Maj. Elliot requested hand grenades and fireballs from the city (Charleston Arsenal?) in anticipation of the amphibious assault. Wire entagnlements and other obstructions were placed on the parapet of Sumter.

[AndrewGrim]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

Steve, Thank you for the information.
If field craft is a dying art among army reenactors, the skills possessed by most sailors must be as rare as hen’s teeth.
I have been looking Navy and Marine pictures, and one of the things I noticed is lots of pull on boots, when footwear was visible.

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

I made a CS naval frock from Steve's pattern out of blue cassimere and a flat hat from logwood jean with oil cloth brim..it is a relatively easy sewing project. Anyone could do it if they wanted to hit this event.

This event looks stellar according to the advance release. I wish these South Carolinians the best.

[GreencoatCross]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

This event idea sounds absolutely fascinating. The notion of correctly portrayed USN sailors and US Marines is VERY exciting to me. I would consider participating if I had any right to the impression; I know absolutely nothing about Civil War maritime history, material culture, etc.. Thinking about myself trying to portray a sailor accurately sounds like more of a challenge than I could handle!