Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

[SCTiger]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

We were thinking along the lines of a hybrid event. The Navy lands at night and we go until morning with a Ebufu firing demonstrations. Then the POW stuff would commence until mid afternoon, we would have lunch (as a vignette) and then afterward maybe keep a few of you contained in the parade ground under guard with selected talks. Saturday night would be our entertainment, Sunday a ball game and individual LH programs. Officer POW 's would have vastly better treatment.

I was going to keep you on the beach all night while we threw pyro at you, but I don't think they would approve that. We really don't need a lot of weapons, just a few. This should make airline travel easy for some.

The mountain howitzer that was referred to is without a carriage and in the museum at present. We could raise money for it's restoration.

Pete P. thanks for all the photos and Steve for all the help. We will have to research the Charleston Battalion and see what their uniforms looked like as well. I am betting Charleston Depot or Frock coats.

[Marine Mike]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

Pete and Brian,
Keep posting the pics. I've seen many of them before and don't mind seeing them again. This is the first time I saw the battle ax on the gun behind the powder monkey.
The picture of the USS Galena is supposed to have been taken shortly after the Battle of Drewry's Bluff, 15 May 1862. A CSM vs. USM engagement. The CSM stopped the USN from further advancement up the James River on the attempt to run to Richmond. This reslut of this action would be some of the earlist Navy and first Marine MOH recipients.
You'll notice some shot stuck in the iron shielded hull. The shielding would be stripped during the refit in 1863. She was assigned to the West Gulf Blockading Squadren and participated in the Battle of Mobile Bay.

Mike Stein

[Mudslinger]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

Greg,

The Charleston Depots jackets would be great, especially since they are under-represented in that locale for authentic events.


Mike,

There we several documented CSM vs. USM engagements in and around Charleston also. The CSMs in Charleston were stationed off of Wadworth St., and the rest were rotated off the CSN receiving ship C.S.S. Indian Chief.

What would be really interesting would be a 1st person scenario that discusses the recovery of the two 11-inch Dalghrens recovered by the CSM/CSN and the CS Army and civilian Engineers from the U.S.S. Keokuk (double-turreted monitor). The Keokuk suffered 64 direct hits on Dupont's attempt to take Charleston by sea in 1863, and sank just off the sandbar on Morris Island. One of the Keokuk's guns is at White Point Gardens ( The Battery) downtown.

[Vuhginyuh]

And now some color shots

Ft Fisher LH, ca 1983.

[Vuhginyuh]

Yes, the torpedo is the real deal

Part two.

[Marine Mike]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

Nick,
The whole gun recovery would be a Confederate action and be pretty quiet. That would have to be carefully planned and still might remain a private affair. Most folks like to see engineers blow things up. It may work better if the story of the recovered guns is included in the Sumter LH that Greg is proposing.
There were a lot of smaller actions on the Stono and beyond that might have a broader appeal and be able to stand on their own.
Mike Stein

[SCTiger]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

Thanks Garrison,

I guess there wasn't too many Sutlers selling those uniforms back then, you did look sharp. Kind of proves that this hobby has been capable of producing good LH events for some time. I know we can reproduce that experience.

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

Thanks Garrison,

I guess there wasn't too many Sutlers selling those uniforms back then, you did look sharp. Kind of proves that this hobby has been capable of producing good LH events for some time. I know we can reproduce that experience.

Not bad for the early 80's...or for 2009.

The notes made with the images lead to to believe that Lynn Bull (to the left in the torpedo pictures) and Mark Greenhow (with the three shot pistol) made most everything you see there. The redheaded fellow and Mike Vice made the leather and riveted the cutlass scabbards. Each man was responsible for the embroidery on the caps. I think that reflects a period trend aboard ship. That's the good thing about this being in the sinks, I can speculate away.

As far as me 'looking sharp', I was still in the embryonic/lizard child stages then. But thanks for the compliment.

[Mudslinger]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

Sharp pics Garrison. I especially like the mine.

[sigsaye]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

Just got home and caught up on the posts. I would like to mention a few things and am not trying to start a fight.

With the FT. Fischer photos, the impressions are great, but there are a couple of things. With the hats. While ornementation was commonly done on the Sailors "Dress UP and go ashore" hat, his daily working hats were plain. In the period photos which were staged, you often see Sailors with ornemented hats, but they are pretty much showing them off. Same with ribbons and bows. Not on the everyday working hat. There seems to be some one wearing a regular shirt under their frock. I have seen this with other reenacting groups. I have not found any evidence that this was ever done. Sailors wore undershirts. These undershirts did not have collars.

One Sailor wearing his Dress Jacket buttoned up. This would also be incorrect. These jackets were not designed to be buttoned. There was another jacket called a P-Jacket that was designed to be buttoned and was cut in a more pronounced double breasted style with fewer buttons.

Cutlass were not carried by members of a landing party generally. They were carried by boat crews (Oarsmen) and gun crews. When assigned to a landing party as a "Rifleman", Sailors were armed and equiped as Infantry men. Riveted leather scabbards were not adopted until 1864. Prior to that the brass mounted scabbards were the standard. In 1864 as a cost saving measure and to speed up production, the Navy directed Ames to make the all leather version and had all scabbards turned in for repair to it's shops converted to the "New Porter Pattern". This also included converting 1841 acabbards.

The vast majority of leather gear carred by Sailors was actually Army surplus. There were Naval pattern items available, but never enough so gear was suplemented with army cast off and CS captures.

I have research written up in outline form covering all uniform items, field gear and basic life of a Sailor. As soon as I find out who is going to be responsible for the Navy side of the house I will be happy to transfer it to them so they can go over it and sort out what they need and then we can detail it all out.

About the uniforms in EOG. Again, those are the "Get Dressed Up" gear of the original owner and are not representitive of what the Sailor was wearing every day. My writings concern PEC, NUG or what ever the phrase of the day is. There will always be variations. Did Sailors have embroidery on their hats and uniforms? Yes, Did they wear their Dress Jackets as part of a working uniform? Maybe. These things fall into the realm of Shoulder Scales, leggings and leperd skin trousers. They were there, but if you look at the photos, not too often.

I am not trying to spit in any bodys Flat Hat. I am just trying to share what I have spent quite a number of years researching so that any who chose to do this can have the most correct impression they can.

Steve Hesson

[GreencoatCross]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

Steve,

So the frocks, undershirts, trousers, and cap in EoG aren't representative of what a sailor would have worn for "work" even if the embroidery, shell buttons, and ribbons are removed? Could those garments be studied and used as an example to make a reproduction set, say if the embellishments weren't added? I guess what I'm curious about is if the materials and patterns are correct for what is needed at the event (sans decoration of course).

I understand the PEC thing too, but I think it can get out of hand. With the great research you've already posted here and still have to share, I don't expect everyone portraying a sailor to show up with wild embroidered blues. I did notice some embroidery on one of the EoG frocks though, across the chest and done with black thread; is something more subdued like this acceptable? Not trying to find excuses for myself or anyone else, I am just curious.

Thanks for all the info you've posted...I'm looking forward to more!

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

The EoG items are a good start to get a general idea of cut and pattern, but with the wealth of images of working crews, you'll get a better idea. You see alot of plain blue flannel shirts (some quite similiar to contract variant shirts from the army), you see several different types of collars on blouses, and can tell the variation in material color and type. You also see alot more buttonfly trousers than fallfronts in some of these images. I don't know what the ratio was/is, but finding a buttonfly trouser pattern and adjusting the leg width may be easier than making broadfalls for some folks. "A Year on a Monitor and the Destruction of Fort Sumter" is a good book to get about life on board, and I believe there is a reference about optaining "blue cloth" and making their garments, or having some more industrious folks do it for them. Steve will attest that "blue cloth" can be cotton, flannel, kersey, denim, or just about anything else blue. I've been more of a plainer guy for my impression, so I've taken note of any and all plainer shirts and blouses in images, and there are many. I'm hoping that Archie Marshall (Floridawar on this forum) jumps on soon, as he has a couple of dozen images that he has access to showing lots of shipboard variations. I'm still looking for the copies he gave me so that I can try to scan them. Its not quite "the skies the limit" but there is indeed alot of documented variations to work with. Remember, less is more.

[Cracker Line]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

Seeing how I left Civil War reenacting a few years back to do various colonial maritime impressions (as well as going to college, doing some boatbuilding/sailmaking, and working as a maritime archaeologist), I'd definitely be interested in making a kit for this event. Put me down as an oarsman, as I have done some extensive rowing in all kinds of waters...and Charleston harbor is NOT the easiest of rows....

Cheers,
Adam C.

[sigsaye]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

Steve,

So the frocks, undershirts, trousers, and cap in EoG aren't representative of what a sailor would have worn for "work" even if the embroidery, shell buttons, and ribbons are removed? Could those garments be studied and used as an example to make a reproduction set, say if the embellishments weren't added? I guess what I'm curious about is if the materials and patterns are correct for what is needed at the event (sans decoration of course).

I understand the PEC thing too, but I think it can get out of hand. With the great research you've already posted here and still have to share, I don't expect everyone portraying a sailor to show up with wild embroidered blues. I did notice some embroidery on one of the EoG frocks though, across the chest and done with black thread; is something more subdued like this acceptable? Not trying to find excuses for myself or anyone else, I am just curious.

Thanks for all the info you've posted...I'm looking forward to more!

Brian, To answere your initial question as to the validity of using the EOG uniforms as a base, yes, they would work. Button down collars were common, but not the most common. The frock with the dikie is not a good choice for an every day frock. As you look at images, you see the flyfront trousers are much more common than the fall front.

I know for folks who have spent a lot of time reproducing Army uniforms, this is a difficult thing to get your head around. With the Army stuff, it is exactly reproducing a specific item down to pattern, fabric and stitches per inch. Navy stuff just doesn't work like that. There was no specific "pattern" for Navy enlistd uniforms. The Navy had shops at the Naval ship yards that produced these items, but they did not have the strict specifications that the Army had. The reason for this is quite simple. The Army was a metropolitan organization, never meant toleave the continental US. Whereas, the Navy was intended to operate away from the US for years at a time. There were no US support bases outside of the US. There fore, each ship had to survive on theire own. This meant that the Sailor would have to get clothing hererever he could. Ships could carry readymade clothing. There is a table showing how much clothing various ships were supposed to carry based on crew size. However, this ready made clothing took up a lot of space aboard ship. Most Captains opted to cary bolts of raw fabric that the crew could draw and make their own clothes with. Quite a few Captains chose to not even bother with this. Either way, the Navy knew that it could not enforce any sort of detail specs on what a Sailor was going to wear. So, as long as it was blue and of the common Sailor cut, that was good. As Ross says, the first person accounts state that Sailors made their clothes from any blue fabric they could get their hands on. It was stitched using common period techniques with what ever thread they could get that matched the fabric.

Now, enbelishing a uniform that you are going to wear to work in. Anything you do to that garment you are going to have to do on your own time. You are standing 4 hours on watch and 4 hours off watch. During your off watch time, during the day (working hours) you have tasks that you are assigned to do. Basically, the only time you have to yourself during the course of a day is the four hours between watches after "knock off ships work" which is approximately 1700, and "Silence" (taps today) at approx 2130. During this time, you also have to eat, followed by sweeping down the berth/mess deck and if possible, catch a bit of sleep. Now, on most ships of the day, wednesday after noons were sometimes set aside for the maintenance of clothing. Sometimes Sundays. These few hours were about the only time a Sailor really had sufficent time to work on sewing. Given that schedual and life style, why put a lot of effort in to decorating clothing that you wear scrubbing decks, scraping off old paint and rust, painting, varnishing and tarring the ship, policshing or greasing metal or other assorted moving parts and moving coat around the bunkers of coaling ship? Except for coaling ship, I have done all of these things. It does in fact beat up your gear.

The thing to remember here is that for a Sailor of the day, aboard ship there was "On Watch" and "Off Watch". There was no "Off Duty". You could not, in most cases, when you got off watch, just amuse yourself until your next watch. There was work to be done, and the off watch crew did it. When there was no work to be done, in the evenings when it was too dark to work anymore, you ate or slept. I guess the bottom line here is that is just doesn't make sense to decorate you work clothes as they are going to get beat up. Put that time into a really good uniform you save for going ashore in.

Steve Hesson

[SCTiger]

Re: Soldiers vs. Sailors/Marines Boat Landing LH Ft. Sumter Inquiry

On October 3 & 4th, 2009, there will be a "time line" LH event for Fort Moultrie/Sumter. I will be there as a Sergeant for Company E, 1st U. S. Artillery. They would also accept Naval and Marine impressions that would abide by Steve Hesson''s guidance. This will also be the Bicentennial of Fort Moultrie, from 1809-2009.

On September 19th, the NPS will hold a "Siege Artillery School" at Fort Moultrie, I have advertised the "event in the Artillery Section of the AC. It's a one day, no camping, no small arms, classroom and practical. The uniform is CS, Charleston, Mid-1863, but we could still discuss the Boat Attack.

With the interest indicated on this thread, it would seem a fitting Sesquicentennial event for the c/p/h hobby.
You have chances to meet up in September, October and December at Fort McAllister.