Sherman's Bummers' Henry's

[Curt Schmidt]

Hallo!

This came up on another board, commenting on the event guidelines that the prefered firearms have their modern markings removed...

'Curt, I am not familiar with the BATF laws but would just moving the serial numbers and/or manufacturer stamps to a inconspicuous spot by a professional gunsmith be considered illegal in most states on a Henry?'

I am not a lawyer, but...

At the Federal level:

Sec. 5842. Identification of firearms

(a) Identification of firearms other than destructive devices.:Each manufacturer and importer and anyone making a firearm shall identify each firearm, other than a destructive device, manufactured, imported, or made by a serial number which may not be readily removed, obliterated, or altered, the name of the manufacturer, importer, or maker, and such other identification as the Secretary may by regulations prescribe.

States can vary, however, they typically mirror the Fed laws as a felony. Some make it a misdeanor on the first offense, a felony on the second.

NUG, typically, state's language will mirror the "changed, altered, removed, or obliterated."

I suppose where it can get legally hairy, is whether law enforcement and the courts interpret "changed" as removing the serial number from its location and stamping it anew under the barrel. (But since we are also taking about removing the maker's stamp, etc., it is kind of moot?)

HOWEVER, under Federal law, and the several state laws I have read, this does NOT apply to our 19th and 18th century muzzleloaders.
BUT, in cases of fire, etc., or theft recovery and identification, having some form of "ID" that shows a particular gun is yours, is helpful.

As I often post... know the Federal laws, but also the state AND local laws where you live.

Curt

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Sherman's Bummers' Henry's

Humble statement of opinion:
1) Don't mess with serial numbers or other markings on cartridge arms made after 1898.
2) Don't purchase cartridge arms made after 1898 that appear to have had serial numbers or other markings removed, changed, or in any way messed-with.

[csabugler]

Re: Sherman's Bummers' Henry's

I cannot document it off hand, but I think the exception for blackpowder weapons has to do with the "indirect ignition" factor resulting from the use of caps or flints, etc. I believe that the use of a primer in the cartridge of the henry and Spenser ( etc) is considered as a modern firearm even though used with black powder. Something to do with the primer/cartridge issue.
I looked it up once a while back...
IMHO
Of course, it always has a lot to do with why the cops are looking at your weapon

[FloridaConscript]

Re: Sherman's Bummers' Henry's

Humble statement of opinion:
1) Don't mess with serial numbers or other markings on cartridge arms made after 1898.
2) Don't purchase cartridge arms made after 1898 that appear to have had serial numbers or other markings removed, changed, or in any way messed-with.

I'm with brother wickett on this one. I strive for authenticity like everyone on here, but like real bullets and rotten food, I draw the line at activity that may draw the ire of local or federal "law".*


*in the north, you may have police, deputy sheriffs, highway patrol etc. Down south, all law enforcement is referred to collectively as "the law".

[JimKindred]

Re: Sherman's Bummers' Henry's

Curt,

This is a very good subject to discuss as the world of Title I firearms is totally different from that world of muzzleloaders. What is commonly accepted as defarbing will get you in a whole lot of trouble when applied to title I type firearms. The Title I firearms category includes revolvers and pistols (handguns), rifles, and shotguns which are non-suppressed, which do not have short barrels, and which only fire one round of ammunition for each action of the trigger mechanism. Reproduction Henrys as well as Spencers fall into this catagory.

Manufacturer, import and serial number markings can be moved but it requires a variance (permission) from ATF to do so. Not just any ol' gunsmith can preform this work, it will require at a minimum a Class 1 FFL SOT 7 to do the work legally. A SOT 7 is a manufacturer.

Unfortunately ATF regulations require that those markings be located in a conspicuous location so if the idea is to move them to hide them you can stop now, it is illegal. However if you are dead set on doing this just remember those guys in the suits don't have much of a sense of humor about regulation violations. Typically when caught by local or state law enforcement the cases are turned over to ATF for posecution under Federal regulation.

[JimKindred]

Re: Sherman's Bummers' Henry's

I cannot document it off hand, but I think the exception for blackpowder weapons has to do with the "indirect ignition" factor resulting from the use of caps or flints, etc. I believe that the use of a primer in the cartridge of the henry and Spenser ( etc) is considered as a modern firearm even though used with black powder. Something to do with the primer/cartridge issue.
I looked it up once a while back...
IMHO
Of course, it always has a lot to do with why the cops are looking at your weapon

Pat,

The definition of an antique firearm -

(a) Any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; and (b) any replica of any firearm described in paragraph (a) of this definition if such replica (1) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or (2) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade. http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text....2.1.1&idno=27

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Sherman's Bummers' Henry's

Hallo!

More of an issue with ammunition being available to shoot them.
The Henry is a "modern firearm" not becasue of its pre 1898 design, but because it is made after 1898 and ammunition (ex: .44 WCF/.44-40 or .45 Colt)) is available for it.

It does not matter whether the cartridges are smokeless, "cowboy equivalent" smokeless, or black powder.

(The same holds true for say revovlers such as the later Colt M1851/61 Navy or M1860 Army, the M1871 "open Top," the M1873 Colt Peacemaker, or the
M1875 Remington.

Or perhaps worse yet, are the lads who take the C & B Colts and Remingtons and use the Richards or Richards & Mason type process to convert the percussion revolvers to metallic cartridge. While drop-in, take out" cylinders are okay, once the frame is modified in a permanet way such as
adding a loading gate or relief groove the revolver shifts from exempt to a modern cartridge firing firearm and becomes a felonious modification.)

Regarding the other, "we" are trying to be responsible in not leading lads, or
encouraging lads, to commit misdemeanors or felonies out of ignorance of the law(s).
Of course, lads are free to make their own decisions as to what works for them and what penalties they are willing or choosing to risk to suit their Mental Pictures.

Curt

[PogueMahone]

Re: Sherman's Bummers' Henry's

If I ever get busted, I'm gonna work a deal where I get probation and rat out the rest of you defarbers.

I dread the day I'm pulled over and the officer decides to inspect my reenacting stuff. Edged weapons, firearms with altered markings, black powder ... easy things to find, but what about the unlabeled pharmaceuticals I carry in tins in my pocket, the OTC drugs I carry in unmarked pill bottles, the unidentified white powder in the wooden container that smells like mint toothpaste, the other unidentified granular, powdery items in my haversack, the liquor in the bottle that does not bear a tax seal, the counterfeit money in my wallet and all the false identification papers?

Zealotry is a sad thing in law enforcement, but it exists. By the time you got all this straightened out, you have been booked and obtained bail and lost time from work and had to explain it to an awful lot of people.

[Matt Woodburn]

Re: Sherman's Bummers' Henry's

My demons will all have torches with serial numbers. But when the woods reach 3500 degrees it tends to obliterate said markings.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Sherman's Bummers' Henry's

Hallo!

Some are brass colored instead of copper.
Some are center fire rather than rimfire.

Some demons have names.

Some demons have numbers for names.
Some have weird little symbols for names.
Some have long names like "Made in Italy" or "Cimarron F.A. Co. Fredericksburg, Tx."

:)

Curt

The Smoke Witch says - Wahoo!
And the Wise Man says - Me too!
And the Guru says - Wazoo!
So do what you do!

We're all just travelers, on the Road to Kingdom Come, Mess

[cprljohnivey]

Re: Sherman's Bummers' Henry's

Mr. Smotherman,

The only cop I know of that would bust you for all that is Barny Fife. If you stay away from Mayberry, you should be fine.