Money

[PogueMahone]

Re: Money

The SS agent I talked to was pretty specific about U.S. currency being the issue. I asked about state or local bank issued notes and he kind of lumped them in with C.S. money ... NOT U.S. currency, not something he would investigate.

[PogueMahone]

Re: Money

... all but a few reenactors (sadly) don't know one end of a dip pen from another.

Mike,

How many nibs have you had broken by unpracticed hands trying to bear down?

I lost three in one paycall.

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: Money

Mike,

How many nibs have you had broken by unpracticed hands trying to bear down?

I lost three in one paycall.

You let people use yours? :)

If I find myself in a situation where I'll be handing them to people -- like civilians to sign passes or oaths -- I try to pick something that will stand up to the traffic and I end up sort of coaching them through. But I have had a couple break. Not three though. You got me there.

[Dreamer42]

Re: Money

Joe,
Directly from the Bureau of Engraving and Printing web site:

http://www.bep.treas.gov/

Counterfeiting Laws

IT'S THE LAW

Manufacturing counterfeit United States currency or altering genuine currency to increase its value is a violation of Title 18, Section 471 of the United States Code and is punishable by a fine of up to $5,000, or 15 years imprisonment, or both.

Possession of counterfeit United States obligations with fraudulent intent is a violation of Title 18, Section 472 of the United States Code and is punishable by a fine of up to $15,000, or 15 years imprisonment, or both.

Anyone who manufactures a counterfeit U.S. coin in any denomination above five cents is subject to the same penalties as all other counterfeiters. Anyone who alters a genuine coin to increase its numismatic value is in violation of Title 18, Section 331 of the United States Code, which is punishable by a fine of up to $2,000, or imprisonment for up to 5 years, or both.

Forging, altering, or trafficking in United States Government checks, bonds, or other obligations is a violation of Title 18, Section 510 of the United States Code and is punishable by a fine of up to $10,000, or ten years imprisonment, or both.

Printed reproductions, including photographs of paper currency, checks, bonds, postage stamps, revenue stamps, and securities of the United States and foreign governments (except under the conditions previously listed) are violations of Title 18, Section 474 of the United States Code. Violations are punishable by fines of up to $5,000, or 15 years imprisonment, or both.



I hate to disagree with you, but intent is a key factor. I have searched for a differentiation between money in current circulation vs. antique, or out of circulation, money, but haven't found any such information. I am assuming that the present laws apply to modern US or foreign money being passed for real notes in circulation.

Again, when I showed my banking neighbor the bills I printed from the mid 1800s she examined them and found them to NOT be in violation of any federal laws.

I'm not doubting what your SS friend told you, but the way I see what the Bureau of Engraving and Printing says they certainly DO consider intent.

- Jay Reid
Dreamer42

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: Money

Joe,
Directly from the Bureau of Engraving and Printing web site:

http://www.bep.treas.gov/

Counterfeiting Laws

IT'S THE LAW

Manufacturing counterfeit United States currency or altering genuine currency to increase its value is a violation of Title 18, Section 471 of the United States Code and is punishable by a fine of up to $5,000, or 15 years imprisonment, or both.

Possession of counterfeit United States obligations with fraudulent intent is a violation of Title 18, Section 472 of the United States Code and is punishable by a fine of up to $15,000, or 15 years imprisonment, or both.

Anyone who manufactures a counterfeit U.S. coin in any denomination above five cents is subject to the same penalties as all other counterfeiters. Anyone who alters a genuine coin to increase its numismatic value is in violation of Title 18, Section 331 of the United States Code, which is punishable by a fine of up to $2,000, or imprisonment for up to 5 years, or both.

Forging, altering, or trafficking in United States Government checks, bonds, or other obligations is a violation of Title 18, Section 510 of the United States Code and is punishable by a fine of up to $10,000, or ten years imprisonment, or both.

Printed reproductions, including photographs of paper currency, checks, bonds, postage stamps, revenue stamps, and securities of the United States and foreign governments (except under the conditions previously listed) are violations of Title 18, Section 474 of the United States Code. Violations are punishable by fines of up to $5,000, or 15 years imprisonment, or both.



I hate to disagree with you, but intent is a key factor. I have searched for a differentiation between money in current circulation vs. antique, or out of circulation, money, but haven't found any such information. I am assuming that the present laws apply to modern US or foreign money being passed for real notes in circulation.

Again, when I showed my banking neighbor the bills I printed from the mid 1800s she examined them and found them to NOT be in violation of any federal laws.

I'm not doubting what your SS friend told you, but the way I see what the Bureau of Engraving and Printing says they certainly DO consider intent.

- Jay Reid
Dreamer42

Having worked for both organizations back in the distant misty dawn of my career, and given the choice, I think I would go with what a Secret Service agent told me he or she would arrest me for, rather than with my own interpretation of what E&P put on their web site. It's not E&P that's going to bust you.

If you were to make a very good reproduction of current US money and the USSS found you with it, I don't think they would have to wait till you passed it to arrest you.

It would be hard to argue that you had no intent, when you had made the effort to create it in the first place. And a historic note would still have its face value, let alone its value to collectors.

You might walk, but in the meantime you would need to pay your lawyer, and with real money.

[PogueMahone]

Re: Money

Your own quote:

Printed reproductions, including photographs of paper currency, checks, bonds, postage stamps, revenue stamps, and securities of the United States and foreign governments (except under the conditions previously listed) are violations of Title 18, Section 474 of the United States Code. Violations are punishable by fines of up to $5,000, or 15 years imprisonment, or both.

What part of this do you not get?


You can do as you please. As I stated before, I don't think the Secret Service is going to swoop down on events and arrest anyone found with a handful of repro currency, but I think people should be aware that it is illegal.

[Dreamer42]

Re: Money

Joe,
I can see the point you are making. I also see how it can be viewed as one complete listing of rules. The way I read this law, and perhaps this is how the governments gets around certain regulations by weaving in confusion, but I don't think it is that difficult to understand. I'm not a lawyer, so I very well could be wrong.
But the law seems to be actually divided into several distinct categories. The first is a general outlining of rules and restrictions. In other words, what classifies as criminal?

Manufacturing counterfeit United States currency or altering genuine currency to increase its value is a violation of Title 18, Section 471 of the United States Code and is punishable by a fine of up to $5,000, or 15 years imprisonment, or both.
Possession of counterfeit United States obligations with fraudulent intent is a violation of Title 18, Section 472 of the United States Code and is punishable by a fine of up to $15,000, or 15 years imprisonment, or both.

The second is of specific definitions of those rules - given that they violate those laws listed above, it goes on to list those restrictions and penalties:


Anyone who manufactures a counterfeit U.S. coin in any denomination above five cents is subject to the same penalties as all other counterfeiters. Anyone who alters a genuine coin to increase its numismatic value is in violation of Title 18, Section 331 of the United States Code, which is punishable by a fine of up to $2,000, or imprisonment for up to 5 years, or both.

Forging, altering, or trafficking in United States Government checks, bonds, or other obligations is a violation of Title 18, Section 510 of the United States Code and is punishable by a fine of up to $10,000, or ten years imprisonment, or both.

Printed reproductions, including photographs of paper currency, checks, bonds, postage stamps, revenue stamps, and securities of the United States and foreign governments (except under the conditions previously listed) are violations of Title 18, Section 474 of the United States Code. Violations are punishable by fines of up to $5,000, or 15 years imprisonment, or both.


Again, I go back to their own words - criminal intent. If there is a legal presidence, or I am truely mistaken, then I'll close my trap. I just don't read the law that way.
I'll just agree to disagree and end the conversation here.

- Jay Reid
Dreamer42

[Hank Trent]

Re: Money

But the law seems to be actually divided into several distinct categories. The first is a general outlining of rules and restrictions. In other words, what classifies as criminal?

Manufacturing counterfeit United States currency or altering genuine currency to increase its value is a violation of Title 18, Section 471 of the United States Code and is punishable by a fine of up to $5,000, or 15 years imprisonment, or both.
Possession of counterfeit United States obligations with fraudulent intent is a violation of Title 18, Section 472 of the United States Code and is punishable by a fine of up to $15,000, or 15 years imprisonment, or both.

I don't see what's unclear about that. First paragraph: manufacturing is illegal, period. Second paragraph: possession "with fraudulent intent" is illegal.

In other words, you make it, you break the law. You just possess it, not so much. That makes perfect practical sense for the usual circumstances, where a criminal prints up counterfeit $20 bills and puts them into circulation. The "intent" prevents innocent people who unknowingly received the bills from breaking the law just for having them in their wallet or cash drawer, while it still makes illegal the activities of both the counterfeiter and his henchmen who deliberately introduced them into circulation.

For our purposes, it means that the reenactor or vendor who made the bills is breaking the law, while the reenactors who merely received them at pay call or bought them to use in living history with no intent to circulate them, are innocent.

That's great for the reenactors who want to use them, not so great for the reenactor who makes them. Practically speaking, I doubt the feds are planning to raid reenactors' homes and confiscate their photoshop images and printers, but the law seems pretty clear when it comes to federal currency.

For non-federal currency (state money, CS bills, private bank notes, etc.) I believe the Hobby Protection Act for numismatic replicas applies to those who make or sell the items and only requires inclusion of the word "copy," but I can't see what the penalty is for not complying.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[A Baltimore Confederate]

Re: Money

I am sure there is some reference somewhere where a soldier had gold, possibly as coins. Since we are all "pretending", when it comes to 1860s living, but we still have to live with 21st century laws and rules, how about using real "gold-looking" coins when dealing with sutlers, and other business transactors, by using the current currency, thus avoiding the Secret Service conflicts? I am speaking/typing about the use of the new $1 Presidential coins. They are current, legal tender; look similar in size/color to gold coins of the time; should be readily accepted by sutlers, and other business types; and gives the reenactor a logical choice in paying/playing with a period-looking (not like the real thing) currency that will not run them afoul of suited, sun-glass wearing G-men (T-men)!!

You can get them at almost any bank; come in rolls of 25, for $25; and easy to carry by using a small leather bag or a poke sack.

Just a thought!