Confederate NCO Sword

[Jeff Black]

Re: Confederate NCO Sword

Tom,
Not directed at you at all. As I said, I'll take contructive criticism anytime! I'm pretty thick skinned and have a long fuse on a terrible temper (I guess that comes with the red hair?) Keep the comments coming.

Patrick, thanks for the references again. I appreciate it. Also, I appreciate your wording on the chevron issue. I couldn't get the words right with how it needed to be said and your reasoning is precisely why I have Chevrons. Our battalion is currently going thru some changes and not everyone knows me as the Sgt. Major yet.

PM you the schedule.

Thanks all!

[Secesh]

Re: Confederate NCO Sword

Sounds good Jeff. I'll gladly serve under you anytime. T.

[unclefrank]

Re: Confederate NCO Sword

I was thinking of picking up an NCO Sword for the post Ordinance Sgt. impression I do at Fort Wayne here in Michigan. We do a morning and evening formation to raise and lower the flag, and it would be appropriate to have one. They are rather clumsy, and would seem to be a real pain to lug about in the field.

[rebelfirefighter07]

Re: Confederate NCO Sword

I appreciate the opinions regarding the use of the NCO swords. Theres no doubting that they were there even if it were just in small numbers in Confederate Service. So I still pose the question. What style is correct for Confederate Service and who makes a decent reproduction? Whether I decide to carry one or not to carry one I'd like to expand my knowledge on the subject. The more I can learn the better. Thats what this is all about isn't it? Thanks

[David Fox]

Re: Confederate NCO Sword

Well, not to breast the current, but Confederate manufactured NCO swords DO exist and at some point somebody had to be wearing them at sometime during the war for them to be discarded "to the side of the road". Is there some rule comrade Witt can't portray a Reb NCO on, say, that bright, sunny day BEFORE his chosen persona cast aside this accoutrement? And Confederates DID wear NCO stripes. An example of a jacket sporting them is, I believe, resting in the collection of the North Carolina archieves in Raleigh. Orders are extact insisting Confederate NCOs wear their stripes, indicating of course, many did not. But is it too much of a stretch to believe some significant number of them actually followed orders?

[Justin Morris]

Re: Confederate NCO Sword

Because something existed means that surely someone used it at some point during the war. Documentation, documentation, documentation. That is all I am saying on this point and any other point where folks want to use an item that 5 people in the entire war used, and want people to make them feel good about using it. If you don't have the documentation, don't use it.

[David Fox]

Re: Confederate NCO Sword

Well, before hitting the hay I've pulled-down just one book, Greg Mast's weighty tome "State Troops and Volunteers" (of North Carolina). The face page depicts a North Carolina Confederate sergeant wearing a U.S. NCO baldric and bearing a sword. On pages 4, 42, 43, 49(x2), 126, 174, 180, 195, 203, 210, 244, 297, 336, 352, and 353 are photographs of North Carolina sergeants and corporals wearing their chevrons, God bless 'em.

[coastaltrash]

Re: Confederate NCO Sword

David,
Are the pictures in studio or campaign shots and what era of the war? I'm not saying "Don't do it" on the swords, and in fact, if memory serves me correctly, there are a lot of NCO swords in the Louisiana Book in Portraits of Conflict as well. Now, that said, WEALTH of these two states might have something to do with that, and time.

If I were going to purchase an NCO sword, I would get a federal one and call it a day. Originals can be had for a decent price.

[ajroscoe]

Re: Confederate NCO Sword

I'll throw my two cents in here...

First of all, I will say I am a Federal reenactor, and therefore that is where my knowledge lies. That being said, when I portray a Sgt Maj. I use what documentation exists for the unit first. Then, I look at the time of the war and the theater. If its early war, you'd be more wrong NOT to have it. Mid war, I usually carry just a rifle, mid or late war, an officer's sword. Unlike today, where Sergeants Major are old soldiers of invaluable experience and wisdom, Civil War Sergeants Major were being groomed to be Lieutenants. A great example is Elisha Hunt Rhodes, who started the war as a private and ended it a Light Colonel, serving as Sgt. Maj for 8 or 9 months along the way. I have seen countless pictures, many on this site, of them wearing line officer-type swords of various styles. To me, that seems the best of all worlds, establishing the importance of the rank through the symbolism of the sword, while using a (more) functional blade. Probably why they did it back then.

Justin, I would say that you have to be EXTREMELY careful with an attitude like that. As historians, we can not always know what was and wasn't used at a given point, and random assumptions either way are not good. If you want to make the assumption that a Spencer carbine wasn't used at a battle in 1862 by an infantry company from Alabama, I think we'd all agree on that. But when it comes to something as commonplace and mundane at rank insignia and standard issue ordnance, generalizations in the absence of proof do as much disservice as the farb wearing four war service chevrons. Did some NCO's not wear chevrons? Undoubtedly. Did many also wear them? Of course. When it comes to swords I think we can say that more than 5 people in the whole war used them, as you said. I have looked without luck trying to find an earlier thread debunking the notion that NCO swords were nonexistant by the end of the war. Someone had posted an inventory of musician and NCO swords in Indiana regiments throughout the war, which proved that many units up through 1864, including many in the Western Theater, still had upwards of 30 swords in the regiment still. Again, I'm not an expert on the Rebel side, but that would seem to suggest that the assumptions reenactors have made are not always correct.

[Justin Morris]

Re: Confederate NCO Sword

My attitude is simply one of if you can't back it up with documentation, whether in writing, or pictures, be very careful of the usage of that item. I am not saying that chevrons were not worn. The usage of them is well overdone in this hobby. People's personal beliefs that because something exists means that surely it was used by everyone just doesn't cut it. Because an inventory of Indiana regiments showed the use of NCO swords up til 64 doesn't mean that Ohio, Michigan, New Jersey, New York and so on regiments used them. Look at pictures on campaign. That is the key. Studio pictures just don't cut it for documentation of an item usage in the field. Could very well be a prop or for dress use. My point is on the NCO swords in Confederate usage, not about chevron usage.

[Gallinipper]

Re: Confederate NCO Sword

Look at pictures on campaign. That is the key. Studio pictures just don't cut it for documentation of an item usage in the field.

Right on, brother! Very well said.

[David Fox]

Re: Confederate NCO Sword

Humm. Not to be contrary, but how many photos of accountred Confederates on campaign are out there? Gathered in one volume, there'd not be much to hold the covers apart. Isn't that a rather slim reed upon which to base usage of paticular uniform variations and accounterment of any sort? Closest thing to a body of mostly nonexistant reb campaign photos are depictions of the dead and of prisoners: often obscure, usually eastern theatre, and almost always looted or otherwise stripped. And why presume brother Witt, who started this thread, is attempting to portray a soldier on campaign? As to the Rebs wearing chevrons in Mast's aforementioned book, pretty-much all are studio shots...pretty-much most surviving photos of living Confederates are. Indeed, some wearers of chevrons in that volume do appear to be wearing at least mid-war uniforms. But I wonder at the inference: is there documentation NCOs sewed chevrons on for pictures to send home to Peggy Sue, then ripped them off later? I'm well-aware there was something of an allergy against rank distinctions rife among some NCOs in some Confederate units at some times during the war: orders that NCOs parade w/ their rank distinctions evidences this. But "orders is orders". Reminds one of the repeated orders in the Army of the Potomac for EMs to wear uniform caps. One can be forgiven for presuming such sartorial regulations had an effect. Anyone concerned about authenticity must indeed be sensitive to many of the sentiments expressed in this thread; we'd break out in hives at the sight of Confederate or Union infantry marching about on campaign with numbers of NCOs clanking along burdened by swords. But too much of a good thing (pared-down 1864 authenticity as a presumed norm, for instance) can still be too much. At least I'd repectfully so submit.

[rebelfirefighter07]

Re: Confederate NCO Sword

One thing that I notice uncontested in any set of pictures from the War Between the States is variety and tons of it. No two units are the same and the farther into the war you look no two soldiers are the same especially when dealing with Confederates. If everyone were to follow the standard of no NCO rank insignia and no NCO swords, or no Bowies, or no "whatevers" that were carried in any number would it not be just as farby and wrong as everyone wearing stripes and totin NCO swords and such. Theres no way to look at every soldier every day. That being said I can't see completely throwing out items that were issue items and/or part of regulations and orders just because they don't take up the majority of pictures. It also erkes me when someone looks at a picture and it does not go along with their way of thinking so they jump up and "say that has to be a prop or staged cause that can't be right." Why question is how do you know?! How do you tell whether its a prop or what that man toted or wore every day. Every man had an independent train of thought. What one man could have thought to be more trouble than it was worth might be worth its weight in gold to his file partner. We can't rewrite history and some things we are never gonna know but its hard for me to dispute pictures. The list is a mile long of items that an many authentics (not all) will call farby at the drop but you see them in countless pictures. Don't be caught by the wrong person with hat brass even though theres photographic evidence. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone specific, this is just how I feel. I try to be as authentic as possible and learn as much as possible. Thats why I came here. I just asked a simple question about what design/style sword was correct. I appreciate the help obtained by a few good men. I hope I haven't offended anyone but it has long been time for me to vent. I've seen a good many threads that had potential from the start shot down by smart ellicts before anyone with a decent answer could respond. there are no dumb questions only dumb answers.

[coastaltrash]

Re: Confederate NCO Sword

I guess no one knows an answer you will be happy with. If you made up your mind before posting the question, why even bother to post? I believe chevrons and NCO stripes are under represented in the hobby, as well as NCO belts on Federals. I also believe spoon and wreath belts are under represented on Confederate ENLISTED troops. I'm not saying every item in a photo was a prop, far from the contrary. I provided an 1864 quote with use of the sword during the ATLANTA campaign, a reason for needing NCO stripes in this hobby, and an honest opinion on the use of an NCO sword. As a First Sgt, you owe it to the guys to keep that rifle.

Also keep in mind when dealing with officers swords-those were private purchase in many instance, I assume a high ranking NCO such as a Sgt Major would have acquired a sword at some point in a given situation, but that doesn't mean carry it all the time. As the senior enlisted man of the regiment, it is often a good idea to tote that rifle and be able to inform the commander when it is time for a change in the carry. Remember, you should be acting like the voice of the enlisted to the officers, not a guy standing in the ranks holding a sword.

[Michael Comer]

Re: Confederate NCO Sword

People have different tastes, personalities etc. I personally like chevrons when I portray an NCO. I'm the kind of guy that will always try to meet regulations. If something was supposed to be on a uniform, it's supposed to be on a uniform if at all possible. NCO's help set the example for the enlisted men. If chevrons are the regulation and you have access to them, you wear them.

So, put me in a time machine and send me to 1864 and I'm going to sew chevrons on my uniform if I can. Transfer my personality to the reenacting world and I'm going to be a guy who shows up wearing chevrons at an event-and I do, unless guidelines say not to do it for the impression/scenario. If I'm an officer, I would like my NCO's to have chevrons. That's just me and I'm sure there were plenty of semi anal-retentive NCO's during the war also.