Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

ArmiSport Issues

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Re: ArmiSport issues

    The conventional thinking is that the reconversion process has compromised the integrity of the barrel, breech area, etc however I would think this would vary from weapon to weapon. Hoyt and Whitacre (I think) both have Lorenz rifled barrels if the rest of the weapon is sound. Having made a fairly careful study of the M-1854, their cult like following is something of a mystery to me. But, I have done a Lorenz put together and it was not as difficult (or complicated) as the Enfield, which had more to do with the parts I started with than anything else. I just find the Lorenz unrefined, actually crude and primitive compared to the P53 design. Hook type lock, barrel found predominantly with block rear sights, kind of clunky lock function, top band is merely ornamental rather than functional as the weapon is sort of a 'tweener size between rifle and rifle-musket. Opinions vary on their merits, I suppose, but a Lorenz put together could be fairly easily accomplished especially if you only need to fit a new barrel...meaning you began with a good lock assembly and stock already integrated. Part of being a cruder functioning weapon is (of course) a certain simplicity of design.

    Todd Watts is toying with doing a Lorenz w/ Blockade Runner. The BRI museum has a minty example with a long range rear sight that would be excellent to copy part by part, and if he can be convinced to trouble himself that might be a M1854 Lorenz repro worth having as an option. The current India made Loyalist Arms Lorenz repro is off in ways that are not easily remedied, but let's not get into all that.
    Last edited by Craig L Barry; 10-25-2009, 01:59 PM.
    Craig L Barry
    Editor, The Watchdog, a non-profit 501[c]3
    Co-author (with David Burt) Suppliers to the Confederacy
    Author, The Civil War Musket: A Handbook for Historical Accuracy
    Member, Company of Military Historians

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: ArmiSport issues

      Ah, the Lorenz. They were giveaways at gunshows in the eighties and into the nineties. I finally broke down and acquired mine at a Knoxville show perhaps thirteen years ago for around $300. It is sound, distinctive, and more than faintly ugly. A deal has been written about them, mostly in my experience on www.civilwarguns.com. Most all Southron Lorenzes appear to have been in the original calibre, which varies but is something the far side of .55, as I understand it. I've shot mine w/ .54 calibre minies as did most users, if one may judge from issue ammunition packs. I don't know what Johnny Reb's experience was, but .54 calibre minies in mine obviously weren't stablizing. According to Greg Edington, the projectiles for which the weapons were designed weren't minies atall but something operating vaguely on the principle of a Williams cleaner-bullet, if I can simplify. Dixie carries a Lorenz mould but I haven't broken down my sales resistence sufficiently to purchase one. Lorenz was an odd duck of foreign manufacture: more and more in evidence in the AOT from mid-war on, a reversal most trends and of Federal issue. Therefore, visability in the reenacting community is surely appropriate, I'd reckon we'd all agree, and a sound, faithful replica should be welcome. One thing about a Lorenz replica...ugly wood wouldn't be a handicap; it'd be true to prototype!
      Last edited by David Fox; 10-25-2009, 04:02 PM.
      David Fox

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: ArmiSport issues

        I remember him talking about that a while back. I think that it can be done, at least with some of the Belgian manufactured Lorenz-type weapons, some of the parts in the lock appear to be similar in dimension to Belgian manufactured Enfields. I wish I could get my hands on one of each to do some good measured comparison to see if my eyes are fooling me or not. If they were using the same parts, I have wondered if one might be able to reproduced done from an Enfield repro.

        The Rifle Shoppe makes all of the parts for a Lorenz and if one wanted to, a complete new weapon could be produced. The last time I figured up the price for all of the parts and a Dunlap stock, it came to around 1295.00, then the cost of assembly of the barrel, sights and breech, polishing all of the parts of the lock and assembly would have to be added. It would be a pretty heavy investment and that is what has stalled me on going that route. I was and am very tempted to buy one of the flintlocks and purchase a new barrel and the necessary lock parts to convert it back to percussion. I was able to shoot Robert Serio's Lorenz live and it was a nicely balanced, very accurate weapon. (I also shot .54 minies but I patched them with a greased patch) I do agree with you about the Enfield, though. The majority of my own weapons study and research has been on the evolution of that weapon and the Hythe School in Kent. Of the muzzleloading arms, it was the finest, in my opinion. The Lorenz has a special place in my heart though. My GGG Grandfather, Green Pinkney Hanks, was enlisted in the 61st Illinois Infantry in Company A in December 1861, though he was from Boonesboro, Arkansas and graduated from Cane Hill College. He was the only member of that branch of the family that fought for the United States. He carried a Lorenz until 1863 when they turned their weapons in for Springfields.

        I guess I can squirrel away extra money and snag one of those flints and we can experiment on the question and find out how it will work out. Another option may be the Wanzl cartridge conversion Lorenz weapons. I have seen a few of those, also pretty cheap, at least if they are not the rifles, and I normally have seen them in good condition. Most of those are the 60-62 date range with the long range rear sight. I have not been able to get a good look at one to see if they did any stock cuts when they installed the breech loading mechanism.

        The Loyalist Arms Lorenz, according to their information when I looked into it again a month ago, seems to be improving. I know that their original ramrod was not correct, in addition to quite a few other issues with it. They were apparently fixing that but I have not seen pictures of the new rammers. I noticed that they were offering a rifled .54 caliber version with a barrel made by a gunsmith here in Arkansas. They may be able to clean it up enough to be a decent reproduction, given the right amount of time. I have kept myself on the too good of a price to be true side of the fence with their products, thoug as I have not been able to personally look one over "in the flesh."
        Matthew S. Laird
        [email]CampMcCulloch@gmail.com[/email]
        [COLOR="DarkRed"]Rogers Lodge #460 F&AM

        Cane Hill College Mess, Company H, McRae's Arkansas Infantry
        Auxiliary, New Madrid Guards Mess
        [/COLOR]
        [I]"An association of men who will not quarrel with one another is a thing which has never yet existed, from the greatest confederacy of nations down to a town meeting or a vestry. "[/I] Thomas Jefferson

        [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: ArmiSport issues

          Gents,

          We had the stock split on a company-owned rifle last year and have been totally unsuccessful in obtaining a replacement. We've been shuffled from sutler to vendor to importer and back again; we still have no new stock. If you can point me in the right direction, I'd be grateful.

          thanks
          Ron Myzie

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: ArmiSport issues

            The thread of the 1842 at 12-24 tpi (at least usually).

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: ArmiSport issues

              I don't know anything is wrong, or right for that matter, with Civil War firearms unless Todd Watts, Craig Barry or Tim Prince tell me. Ask me about clothing and food, I can talk all day. Guns, I rely on experts. Everyone needs to know their weakness.
              Patrick Landrum
              Independent Rifles

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: ArmiSport issues

                It's an interesting thought to reflect that betwixt 1861 and 1865 the primal purpose of the military establishment of each contending party was to put as many muskets (muskets, rifle-muskets, rifled-muskets, rifles) on the firing line as could be deployed. Infantrymen were merely the fleshy mechanisms necessary to transport the musket to battle and then, depending upon the rigors and response of training, to effectively ply those muskets. The muskets required ammunition, maintenance and periodic replacement. The musketmen required much more: food and clothing in adequate amounts at regular intervals, proper shoeing, more-or-less attention to morale issues, shelter as necessary from the elements, and an intelligence useful in getting those muskets into line at a propicious time in propicious numbers. Stripped of sentiment,the man were merely carriage and loading apparatus for the musket. Most effective leaders seem to have viewed their armies so: the men were merely that which made the musket ambulatory. Jackson surely thought this and was successful; McClellan didn't and, thus, wasn't. As the war progressed, it seems from letters and other writings the men came to view themselves so: useful only to the degree they served and utilized their weapons. Thus, if one accepts this, in reenacting the role of infantry accurately, one must needs consider a, if not the, paramount feature of his impression to be that which made him useful, to wit: his musket.
                David Fox

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: ArmiSport issues

                  David,

                  Great post and, IMO, right on the money!
                  John Wickett
                  Former Carpetbagger
                  Administrator (We got rules here! Be Nice - Sign Your Name - No Farbisms)

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: ArmiSport issues

                    I agree, David. That is a very insightful post along with really cool words showing either you are highly intelligent or merely trying to baffle us with B.S.!:D Thinking about it throughout warfare not only in the CW, really succesful leaders tend to be the ones that view the men merely as organisms that operate the war machinery. The ones that spend all their time caring for the organisms and not the machines are loved by the organisms, but are pretty well trashed when they come up against leaders that actually use their men to operate the weaponry. Patton, of course, leaps into mind.

                    Ron, I can usually repair split or cracked stocks well enough to get many more seasons of service for them at a fraction of the cost of stock replacement. If you want to try that for a loaner musket, feel free to ship to me via Blockade Runner and I'll have a look and do what I can for it.

                    It is true that BRi and I are tinkering with the Lorenz to figure out the best way to offer affordable de-farb versions. We are sick and tired of Springfields and Enfields. At least we are seeing interest in MS rifles and some 1816s come about. I still have it in my sick little head to offer Pottsdams and Beligans someday merely because I like the OOgly guns that don't get the attention of the sexier versions. I mean, who in their right mind would want a puny little .54" 2-band rifle when they could use .80" 3-bander Pottsdams?!;) With those things a 6-man squad becomes a full-strength battery!

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: ArmiSport issues

                      Accurate Lorenzes? 1816s? Mississippis? I think I've died and gone to heaven.
                      Mark Taylor

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: ArmiSport issues

                        Coastaltrash wrote: ...don't know anything is wrong, or right for that matter, with Civil War firearms unless Todd Watts, Craig Barry or Tim Prince tell me. Ask me about clothing and food, I can talk all day. Guns, I rely on experts. Everyone needs to know their weakness.
                        ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        Patrick:
                        That's kind of you to say about Todd and Tim, but I am not sure I qualify to be in the same hall of fame with those two, though. And just so you know, in light of that widely known fact about your general lack of firearms knowledge, when de-farbing your P-H Enfield, Todd Watts was asked to stamp an arrow at the top of the ramrod channel pointing at the muzzle along with the instructions "LOAD HERE." While not historically accurate, it was necessary for safety's sake. Hope you found that helpful. You haven't injured yourself with the original bayonet either, I hope? Those are sharp and I meant to put a rubber ball on the pointed end to head off any possible tragedy if you sat on it or something. You are like a son of mine in that way, too.

                        And you could read these forums for a long time and not find any greater truth stated in so few words as what David Fox has posted. That is possibly the most dead-on-point and accurate summation of why getting the musket right and maintaining it properly matters so much. As well as why those of us who do care about such things are so deeply put out with the offensively low quality of available reproduction Civil War muskets, as well as some of the workmanship from frauds who try to make accuracy modifications with no clear understanding of the historical weapon they attempt to copy. Now if I could just get you Enfield toting Johnnies to use the right frog with your P53 scabbard, I will call it a day.
                        Last edited by Craig L Barry; 10-27-2009, 01:00 AM.
                        Craig L Barry
                        Editor, The Watchdog, a non-profit 501[c]3
                        Co-author (with David Burt) Suppliers to the Confederacy
                        Author, The Civil War Musket: A Handbook for Historical Accuracy
                        Member, Company of Military Historians

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: ArmiSport issues

                          Well, crossing my fingers after shaping and oiling these latest 2 Armi Enfields and 2 Armi '42s there are no splits visible. The '42s have more beef in the toe anyway but I noticed open grain again while sanding them. I've conducted the required voo-doo prayers to the stock-gods and am looking for a virgin to sacrifice if necessary, and so far so good.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: ArmiSport issues

                            Well, it appears there's much to be said for building your own gun from original and repro parts. I have never cared for repro guns. The stocks are too chunky and clunky, and the barrels are too heavy. They just don't exhibit the balance, grace, or look of an original. I have a Richmond with an original tube, (Hoyt lined), an original stock, nosecap, buttplate, lock internals, and a condemned US trigger guard assembly. The lock plate, rear sight, hammer, and escutcheons are repros.
                            And like the bumper sticker says, "My other gun is an original Lorenz". :)
                            Paul Manzo
                            Never had I seen an army that looked more like work......Col. Garnet Wolseley

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: ArmiSport issues

                              I appreciate it Todd. I have been looking at the local hardware stores to see what dies they have in stock. Thanks again.

                              Originally posted by Todd Watts View Post
                              The thread of the 1842 at 12-24 tpi (at least usually).
                              Matthew S. Laird
                              [email]CampMcCulloch@gmail.com[/email]
                              [COLOR="DarkRed"]Rogers Lodge #460 F&AM

                              Cane Hill College Mess, Company H, McRae's Arkansas Infantry
                              Auxiliary, New Madrid Guards Mess
                              [/COLOR]
                              [I]"An association of men who will not quarrel with one another is a thing which has never yet existed, from the greatest confederacy of nations down to a town meeting or a vestry. "[/I] Thomas Jefferson

                              [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: ArmiSport issues

                                Has anyone had a problem with their M1842 repro. Musket, in regards to the Lock Plate Bolts, I lost one recently and can not get a good replacement. My Musket is 20+ years old and this is the first problem I have had. Two replacement bolts ( one original ) are too wide to use. Has armi sport changed their specs?

                                Do I need to get the Lock re-bored. Has any one else had a similar problem?

                                Bill Sanders
                                Remember the"Stono Scouts"
                                William Sanders

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X