Bayonet experts..whats this?

[tlindgren]

First post so sorry if this is in the wrong section. Mod please move if need be.

I purchased this bayonet from one of the fella's as a combo package with a old armi sport enfield. He told me it was an original bayonet and am curious if anyone could shed a little light on it or perhaps point me in the direction of a good read.

If I were to guess.... I would say that it is an import from India based on the script on the socket. I don't know the significance of the 0 and 4 stamped on the end. I say 0 because at close inspection you can tell that the stamp was at an angle when struck.

Any info would be great.

Thanks for looking!

[WpnsMan]

Re: Bayonet experts..whats this?

Tim,

The markings are in Nagari and indicates your bayonet in all probability came out of the Gurkha cache found in Nepal which was imported by IMA (International Military Antiques) a few years ago.

Does it fit your Enfield? If so it should have a socket bore of about .781 and a blade length between 17” to 18”. There are similarly marked bayonets from this cache with smaller bores (.718) with longer (22”) blades that fit the Martini-Henry and the Nepal Gahendra and Francotte copies.

With a little de-farbing it will make a fine bayonet as it was purpose designed and manufactured as such. As opposed to the off dimensioned and soft sutler row junk. I actually use a Nepal P53 that I rebuilt, remarked and added a British made Snyder lock too for my Confederate impression.

[David Fox]

Re: Bayonet experts..whats this?

Ditto. I stopped-by Atlanta Cutlery when the cashe from Napal was first brought in country. This bayonet is typical of what was winkled-out of that remote place, if "typical' is a word applicable to that extraordinary dog's breakfast of unexpected oddments of weaponry. I fired a friend's Martini-Henry from that trove just last week: compressed load of FFg under a 500 grain slug in the 577-.450 belts the shoulder! The stuff is soaking-down to local gunshows, etc., w/ tales of exotic American usage having attached. Recently an illustrated story circulated on the net: a guy had found an "old musket" covered in bear grease and wrapped in a rotting blanket secreted in the bole of a tree out west. Close-ups revealed a recent Napalese import. Caveat Emptor.

[tlindgren]

Re: Bayonet experts..whats this?

Thanks for the info! I'm a little disappointed that it's not original but not wholey surprised. I am saving my pennies for a Todd Watts defarb on the enfield and perhaps he can do something with this little gem. It does fit my enfield but it is loose in that the slot for the front sight is to long so that the bayonet slides about a half a centimeter when locked on.

Thanks again for looking!

[Michael Comer]

Re: Bayonet experts..whats this?

Well, technically it is original, just not of CW use. Still it's much closer to the time period than what is available now and better quality I'm sure.

[Todd Watts]

Re: Bayonet experts..whats this?

I have seen some of these Nepalese guns and bayonets in the shop. The quality is decent but the fits are all over the place. Some points seem to have been broken and re-ground because a couple I have seen are a good 3-4" shorter and thicker at the tip than others. Unfortunately the Nepalese markings are so deep that simply filing them away is usally not practical since a deep divot would remain. I can remove most of the markings on that one and perhaps incorporte any remains into an engrave gun # or it could just appear like "battle damage" under the bluing.

[tlindgren]

Re: Bayonet experts..whats this?

Thanks for the clarification Michael and thank you to Todd for weighing in as well. I like the idea of having the markings removed if only partially and declaring what is left as battle damage. Since I am at work while writing this reply I can't post any pictures but I would like Todd and anyone else to take a look at my enfield. I had emailed Todd about a month or so ago asking about his defarb service and after reading so many compliments here I can't wait to send out my rifle. I will also include the bayonet to see if Todd can improve on it. My question about the rifle however (pics to come) is about what version I should go for.

I portray a member of the 10th Tennessee Inf aka "The Sons of Erin" who came out the Nashville and surrounding counties commanded by Col. MacGavock and Col. Adophus Heiman and when first mustered into service where issued fantasitic green uniforms with red trim (unfortunately the details of the uniform are lost to history) bought for by Col. MacGavock and were armed with smoothbore flintlock muskets. The book "Rebel Son's or Erin" is a decent read but doesn't specify what they were armed with other than stated above, if memory serves me correctly. The 10th was captured at Fort Donelson in Feb of 62' and was exchanged and back in service by Nov of 62'. After they were paroled they were re-equiped and rearmed however I don't have documentation of what they would have been rearmed with. Can anyone tell me what would be an appropriate enfileld version for the typical infantryman in the AoT around the time of late 62?

Thanks again!

[Jim Mayo]

Re: Bayonet experts..whats this?

Tim: I would like to call your attention to something Todd said in his last post. If I understand what he means, he said he might be able to incorporate the marks into an engraved gun number. The numbers he is referring to are inventory numbers that were engraved on some Enfield muskets, the associated ramrod and bayonet for import purposes. All three items had the same number but surviving guns with the same number on all three items are scarce as hen's teeth. Ramrods and bayonets with an inventory numbers are occasionally found and are very desirable. I think you should consider this option.

[Todd Watts]

Re: Bayonet experts..whats this?

Actually, after looking at the pics again I realized that the Nepalese markings are above the ring which is not where I have ever seen any period-correct rack/lot/gun markings. But, I think I can mostly remove these markings. There are a couple of parts that appear so deep I might not want to totally remove them and welding over them is not a good idea based on how thin the socket is anyway. Wouldn't want a blow-through or warpage! I'd polish it pretty well and blue the socket correctly and add a Salter mark to it to give it a more correct mark. The pitting along the blade would remain but that will prove its age.

As for the version of Enfield, I think about any would be right so long as the date is '62 or earlier. Captures, blockade-run guns and early war purchases all would have been around. I occasionally do an early pre-BSAT version dated 1859 that might be cool. It does not have the roundel mark on the stock, and the date and TOWER are a little cruder looking on the lock, but they have character. My own was one of these for a time and I thought it looked pretty rugged and cool until I made it a Bond which is far sexier.;)

About the Rebel Sons of Erin, check with Myers Brown at the TN State Museum. His e-mail is Myers.Brown@state.tn.us . He is a good guy and has done a lot of research on the TN units and also may know of some long-hidden uniform description or item still in a dusty box in the archives. You'd be surprised what is not on display in museums!

[tlindgren]

Re: Bayonet experts..whats this?

Todd, thanks for the additional info. I decided to go home for lunch today and I was able to snap some pics of my rifle.

First a couple pics of how the bayonet fits the rifle.



and a sideview.



The weapon was made by Armi San Paolo which I believe it was you Todd who told me that they had become Armi Sport.



Here is the butt stock. Can you identify the wood? I am no good at this. Would you refinish the stock and give it a darker stain?



Here is the lockplate..nothing special.



And now the rifle laying on the floor.



This rifle has been used and abused no doubt but it still functions and although I had a issue with caps pinching on the nipple (remedied with a new nipple) has never failed to fire. I like the look of a unblued barrel but do you think it to be more appropriate to go ahead with a blueing?

Todd, I am afraid I am not familar with pre-BSAT or a Bond but I am open to just about anything. Also, the rifle does have some issues that I would like you to take a look at and I will be sure to send a note along so you don't have to remember this post but..... Issue 1. After every couple shots I need to turn the hammer screw as it tends to come loose and back itself out. I have tried to tightening it taking care not to make it "farmer tight" but it still comes loose. Issue 2. Half Cock works.......sorta. What I mean is that the half cock is stiff enough that I don't need to worry about an accidental discharge while on the move but I can apply enough pressure to the trigger that the hammer will fall. I tried fixing this by taking the lock part way apart and filing down the metal that engages the two notches, as it had started to wear and curl upward, for the half and full cock and that helped a good deal but I still need to be diligent in staying away from the trigger at all times while on the move. Side note: My weapon has passed inpection at every event so I know its safe but I also know that the hammer shouldn't fall while on half cock.


Thanks again to everyone for offering up your opinion and advice.

Kindest regards,