building a useable firing muskets from original parts

[cprljohnivey]

Folks,

Search function only revealed minor hits. I have seen discussion of building a useable firing muskets from original misc. parts and this being about as expensive as a de-farbed repop. I am thinking specifically of a Lorenz but was wondering of someone with experience in doing this type of thing could provide a primer on how exactly to go about this process regardless of the type of musket being "rebuilt". What I'd like to know is specifically where to get the parts. What to look out for. How do you know if you got a good deal on a part. How do you know if the part you intend to buy is useable. How do you know if Part A will fit properly with Part B. Will you need to take a box of parts to a smith to assemble or is this something relatively easy for an average schmuck like me to do in his basement with only the basic household tools.

Thanks,

[marktaylor]

Re: building a useable firing muskets from original parts

Brad,
In my case, I am starting out with a sporterized gun. Everything is in good, working condition, but the stock and barrel have been shortened. A gun such as this one is a good base to start with because it looks like the only parts needed from here are a full length stock (or piece the stock under the 1st or 2nd band), a new barrel or lengthen the barrel, stock metal for the upper part of the stock like band(s) and spring(s), and a ramrod. Sporertized guns often show up on the various online auction sites and message boards. Finding a good base for the project could take time.
Barrel lengthening services are provided by a few. Hoyt is one I've seen mentioned on the N-SSA board, which is a good source of info for a project such as this. Metal parts and full length stocks can be had from vendors such as Lodgewood, S&S, ect.
Good luck if you decide to take on this project. Hopefully the weapon gurus of this board will be along soon to provide more info.

[Michael Comer]

Re: building a useable firing muskets from original parts

Just curious - how is a barrel lengthened?

[David Fox]

Re: building a useable firing muskets from original parts

A number of the older readers' eyes likely misted-over reading your post. Decades ago I built ('assembled' is perhaps a more accurate verb) a chance of muskets, rifle-muskets, and musketoons from odd original parts. Some will remember men like the late Cecil Ennis of Baltimore in this context. There ARE sources remaining out there such as Lodgewood in Wisconsin, S&S Firearms in New York, and Peter Dyson www.peterdyson.co.uk (the latter for Enfield parts) in England. Regrettably, the oddments of parts they offer are no longer considered mere surplus and tend to be pricy.To graze for original parts, the massive Civil War relic show at the Nashville, Tenn. fairgrounds first week of December and the Spring and Autumn North-South shoots at Winchester, Virginia, are best bets. Be advised, however: the 'happy days' are pretty-much over. The Rifle Shoppe in Oklahoma casts and machines parts otherwise unavailable. For about a million dollars and a two-year wait, you can get an excellent, inclusive kit to assemble a Lorenz from them. Whitacre and Hoyt 'stretch' too-stubby barrels and line them. A number of smiths referred-to on this forum can do this work, given the parts. How does one know if the parts will fit and function? If they're for a particular interchangable-parts weapon such as an M.1842 musket, parts will be a snap fit. If not, as with the Lorenz, parts may need machining, heating and working, or may not fit at all. I've a friend just bringing back into service a non-interchangable parts P.53 Enfield. He tried unsuccessfuly three other tumblers to substitute for a broken one before he undertook repairing the faulty bit.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: building a useable firing muskets from original parts

Hallo!

An easy question with a hard answer...

A lot can depend upon one's skills with wood and metal working, complicated by what tools one has. (Thinking of an aquantance who wanted to drive 40 miles to my house to "borrow" a screwdriver because the only tool he owned was a small "4 in 1" file.)

Meaning, on the one hand there is building a "custom-built" gun from all reproductions of actual original parts.
The next is building a "custom-built" gun from a mix of original parts and reproductions of actual original parts.
The next is restoring an original through metal and wood working techniques to its appearance when it was in use.
And the last, and often the "more economical" is not to look toward ever-increasingly expensive orginal parts but rather look to the ("relatively") cheaper "farmer's," or "poorman's" shotguns made from surplus muskets, rifled-muskets and rifle-muskets, and replacing the missing parts, forestock, rammer, and cut-down barrel.

But again, the ability to do any of those will vary according the knowledge, skills, and tools of the potential doer.

And how one views the nasty side-business of originals being stripped to maximize profits as parts and not intact guns. And, working with "Bannerman" or "Sears" cut-down surplus muskets is held by most to be the less destructive to history.

Many of the techniques one can find concerning "de-farbing" guns can be reapplied to "restoring" originals when it comes to metal and wood work if the
"Work in progress" is not far gone so as to require more professional art and craft to bring it back to a believeable appeaprance.

And yes... guns made with non-interchangable parts can be a CHALLENGE to one's skill set and patience- to say it politely...

Curt

[Bill]

Re: building a useable firing muskets from original parts

Oh yes, the good old days.

Thirty years ago, I built a three band rifle musket, when I decided I didn't want to shoot my original Colt Special Model any more. (It started cocking it's self after every round fired.)

The rifle I built has a new barrel and stock. Everything else were original parts. I don't use the weapon for reenacting, because it's actually sort of Farby. A mix of M-1861 and M-1863 parts. It has a M-1861 Trenton lock with a M-1863hammer. The barrel bands are M-1863 screw type. I didn't know any better, I just wanted a rifle to shoot. Funny, I glass bedded the barrel.

I purchased all the original parts from Dixie Gun Works and S & S.

[CS Ensign]

Re: building a useable firing muskets from original parts

Ah, S & S ... back when I was doing an early (1977) "authenticizing your Enfield" project, a lot of the parts came from S & S Firearms.

I see they're still in business, and seem to have some parts that may be useful. If their availability is better than Lodgewood. http://www.ssfirearms.com/download%20catalog.htm

But I echo the others - building guns with non-interchangeable parts can be a real bear, and a detailed knowledge of how the parts are supposed to work a la having a couple of full originals around to examine helped me.

Best,
Greg

[Nighthawk]

Re: building a useable firing muskets from original parts

Back in the late 80's I built a Ga. Armoury rifle from a Zouave. What a bear! After all that work, I couldn't get it to group, so I sold it. After that I stuck to interchangeable parts guns. I now have a '63 dated Richmond with an original tube, (Hoyt lined), an original stock, nosecap, buttplate, lock internals, and a condemned US trigger guard assembly. The lock plate, rear sight, hammer, and escutcheons are repros. I also bought an original Lorenz that need a little TLC. It wasn't by any means a "collector" grade gun. I cleaned all the rust off of the metal work, hand polished it back to bright, and cleaned up the stock. It's my favorite reenacting gun, and terribly underrepresented. Somwhere down the road, I'd like to work up a "hard band" Enfield.

[Fenianboy]

Re: building a useable firing muskets from original parts

Cecil Ennis.......how I searched Shotgun News for his latest offerings.I missed out on a few items but everything I got to first I was most pleased with!

[rogue]

Re: building a useable firing muskets from original parts

If you are building a musket from parts, the US Springfield would be a good one, either '61 or '63 to start with as the parts are interchangable on any one model. Any '61 part should fit into any '61 (exceptions are Colt and Whitney and perhaps others).
The Enfield and Lorenz were assembled with non-interchangable parts and will require a bit more fitting of metal to wood and can be very frustrating.
Probably in numbers alone there should be a larger number of Springfield parts available than other makes.
Lodgewood is in Whitewater, Wisconsin and has parts galore, but are not necessarily cheap nor fast being staffed by a single individual who has a life outside the shop. Rifle Shoppe has many, many newly made parts but most require a lot of skill in finishing their castings, and they are known for their slow delivery of parts.
A shortened barrel can be "stretched" by a craftsman such as Bobby Hoyt of PA or Whitacre of Winchester, VA by sleeving the shorter barrel and then joining it to a full length blank and rifling the two as one. Hard to detect the difference when done by either of these two (and others I am sure). Cost can be looked up at the Whitacre web site, fairly reasonable, but not to be done without the knowledge and tools and experience.
S.Sullivan

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: building a useable firing muskets from original parts

Hallo!

"Just curious - how is a barrel lengthened?"

IMHO, it is another example of our misuse of terms...

:)

NUG...

As my pard a former barrel maker did his- in brief and to over-generalize...

One salvages the breech end by cutting it off. The end of the new barel section is reduced slightly so it slides into the breech end where it is soldered into place and the joint disguised and polished (some lads do this invisibly, others leave a line).

Curt

[cprljohnivey]

Re: building a useable firing muskets from original parts

Thanks for all the responces. I learned allot.

[Fenianboy]

Re: building a useable firing muskets from original parts

For years I shot a cut-down 61 pattern Parker Snow with a Yeck barrel and repro rod utilizing a replacement forearm. I ultimately got a "new" stock but the orignal piece had much more character! If you can find an old Yeck tube......buy it!

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: building a useable firing muskets from original parts

Brad,

You might consider going to the N-SSA nationals in Winchester, VA. You could probably find what you want and just buy it and skip the whole "project" thing altogether.

When I got mine, I had my pick of two to choose from. I was at a small local show, but I got it from a vendor who sets up in Winchester each year.

Just a thought!

[cprljohnivey]

Re: building a useable firing muskets from original parts

John,

I was thinking of doing just that. Thanks.